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Apple's Blue Ocean

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Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#251

Post by jlokier »

makeitdouble wrote: post #193
jlokier wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that 2017 Macbook Air? I have a 2013 Macbook Pro and I'm getting the battery replaced next week by Apple. My laptop is over 10 years old and they're still doing it at their standard battery replacement price.

My mistake, I mixed up a Macbook pro and an Air. The Air was from 2014, the pro is 2017. Could it be regional differences ? I rechecked on the online support page - both Jp and Fr -, and repair support falls off right at 2015 (which is nothing to sneeze at for a maker, but I'd still wish for more)

It's worth asking.

When I did, they couldn't guarantee to repair my 2013 laptop, but they sent out a parts request to see if they had a replacement part in the warehouse (top case), and they did have one, and they were happy to use the battery replacement price if my battery showed the "service recommended" state, same rule as for newer models.

They don't provide a warranty for repair on such an old machine, because they can't guarantee being able to find another replacement part.

I asked for a price on a screen replacement too and they didn't have a screen, so couldn't do that. The screen is in pretty good shape though.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#252

Post by ttfkam »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #243
ttfkam wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch the video I linked. Modern Macs are a single capacitor failure away from shorting 13v straight to those "amazing focus on quality" SSD chips. Either one of the two chips dies, you have a brick. No booting from external drive. Nothing. A brick. All because one capacitor fails. If it were just a matter of replacing a capacitor, I'd agree with you. But the wiring decisions from their "amazing focus" defaults to a…

You guys who are rossmann-pilled should put that as a disclaimer in your comments.

Guilt by association and/or ad hominem are weak sauce. What part was factually inaccurate?

• That storage is soldered unlike the vast majority of laptops on the market, which use standard NVMe sticks?

• That the BIOS is stored in those soldered SSD chips making a single point of failure?

• That if even one of the chips fails, you lose all the data including the BIOS boot logic and brick the device?

• That the board layout sends 13v down the rail directly to the aforementioned SSD chips on capacitor failure?

• That they cannot be repaired anymore, even by experienced professionals?

• That replacement parts that aren't severely compromised (unknown number of write cycles for SSD chips) simply aren't available?

Which part is false and requires a disclaimer? And I ask this as someone who has personally used Macs exclusively on the client since 2003 and professionally since 2011. Owned nothing but iPhones since the original was released in 2007. 5 iPads in total.

I'm no blind Apple hater.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#253

Post by droopyEyelids »

ttfkam wrote: post #252
droopyEyelids wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys who are rossmann-pilled should put that as a disclaimer in your comments.

Guilt by association and/or ad hominem are weak sauce. What part was factually inaccurate? • That storage is soldered unlike the vast majority of laptops on the market, which use standard NVMe sticks? • That the BIOS is stored in those soldered SSD chips making a single point of failure? • That if even one of the chips fails, you lose all the data including the BIOS boot logic and brick the device? • That the board l…

It's not a question of guilt! It's about making it easier to skim the comments.

Rossmann-based answers look like interesting "original thought" comments till you're a few sentences in, and realize you're reading a Rossmann rehash.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#254

Post by ttfkam »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #253
ttfkam wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guilt by association and/or ad hominem are weak sauce. What part was factually inaccurate? • That storage is soldered unlike the vast majority of laptops on the market, which use standard NVMe sticks? • That the BIOS is stored in those soldered SSD chips making a single point of failure? • That if even one of the chips fails, you lose all the data including the BIOS boot logic and brick the device? • That the board l…

It's not a question of guilt! It's about making it easier to skim the comments. Rossmann-based answers look like interesting "original thought" comments till you're a few sentences in, and realize you're reading a Rossmann rehash.

Perhaps it would help to know that I upgraded the RAM and hard drive on my 2005 Santa Rosa MBP. Really easy due to standard DDR2 SODIMMs and SATA connectors.

Did the same to my 2009 unibody, put a 500GB hybrid solid state hard drive in it and bumped the RAM first to 6GB and then to 8GB.

Not only did I bump the RAM in my 2012 unibody to 16GB—which wasn't even a build option when initially released—but replaced the DVD drive with a second 2.5" drive, ran two SSDs in RAID-0, and got 1GB/sec r/w transfer rates, which for that vintage was unheard of, especially since it started with a 240GB HDD. That one lasted me quite a while where the only real drawback from a new one was the screen resolution. I was able to upgrade the screen to a slightly higher res when I broke the screen, so at least a minor improvement there.

Then the Retinas started. Stuck on 16GB RAM on my 2015 MBP, but I loved the new screen, and I eventually replaced the stock 512GB SSD with a 1TB NVMe stick, then a 2TB NVMe stick. This is still my personal laptop, and I'm eyeing a 4TB upgrade for it now, 8 years after initial release.

Got a 2022 M1 Max for work, and it was great, but it did have a boot hiccup six months back. (SSD issues.) Got it "repaired" (really just a replacement since the whole mainboard was useless) and luckily I made regular backups, but became wary once I learned this wasn't an isolated issue and why the problem probably popped up in the first place.

Most of those laptops still work! The parts that died first almost without exception were the storage devices. The CPUs generally kept plugging along well after their usefulness had expired. Screens still light up. RAM still plugging away. The drives have clearly been the weakest link, but when storage is replaceable, we can keep the rest of the laptop out of the trash for many more years. (Assuming you keep them plugged in due to the battery being shot, but even batteries are replaceable or the laptop is usable as a desktop alternative for a loved one.)

Therefore now I'm far more reluctant to purchase a new Mac for personal use precisely because of the design issues found in recent Macs.

Sufficiently original and non-rehashed?

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#255

Post by ttfkam »

graphe wrote: post #127
javchz wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do, specially in low RAM systems, as the SSD becomes like a backup ram to juggle extra information.

I remember modding osx Yosemite to run the swap in the ram when I had an SSD since I was so worried about it, not sure if it still does this but with the infrequently of negative problems and the fact that one of my friends used a 2gb MacBook air 2009 until 2017 made me realize it probably doesn't matter.

A 2009 MBA can still be used if the SSD dies. You can get a replacement or you can plug in an external drive to install on and boot off of. You can upgrade the storage space on that model if you want to.

Since 2018 and the T2 chip, the BIOS is stored on the soldered storage chip pair. Either one of those two chips or a capacitor adjacent to them dies, you've not only lost your files and OS. You can't replace them. You can't even plug in an external drive to boot off of since the BIOS is now stored on the SSD chips as well instead of a separate ROM as before.

2016-2017 soldered the storage, but you could at least work around it. 2018+, there are no more workarounds. If any part of your SSD fails now, you've got an expensive useless brick.

Swapping wear your SSD out faster? SOL. Capacitor fails and shunts 13V through your SSD? SOL. Anything at all happens to either one of your SSD chips? SOL.

Either pay for that AppleCare in perpetuity or buy a whole new laptop. There are no more workarounds.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#256

Post by ttfkam »

webmobdev wrote: post #104
javchz wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do, specially in low RAM systems, as the SSD becomes like a backup ram to juggle extra information.

More so when the RAM remains limited on Macs as it too is integrated with the CPU and hence is non-upgradable. This is even worse than soldered SSD, as we can still make an attempt to replace the SSD chips with new ones with careful soldering, but nothing can be done about the RAM. These deliberately irreparable new Macs are just shitty products.

All my old laptops since 2003 still have functional CPUs and RAM. I'm not overly concerned about the CPU/RAM situation, especially have seen the advantages to a shared CPU/GPU/RAM Arm architecture. Would I prefer upgradeable RAM, sure, but it's not the weak link. Know what's actually failed me over the years?

Storage. Hard drives and SSDs.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#257

Post by ttfkam »

Terretta wrote: post #219
bogantech wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * Just use TB monitors and daisy chaining works fine Not everybody has a zillion dollars to spend on expensive thunderbolt displays and they shouldn't have to when the Displayport standard (and other operating systems) support daisy chaining.

> when the Displayport standard (and other operating systems) support daisy chaining It doesn't support it, exactly, it supports a compressed image in each of the multiple streams transported, which can introduce quality problems when doing the production work people use higher end Macs for. "the combined data rate requirements of all the displays cannot exceed the limits of a single DP port" -- https://en.wikipedia.…

I'm not a gamer. I'd be fine with a single cable that served two 4K monitors at 30Hz from the Mac if it meant I never needed another dock ever again.

That said, TB3/TB4 should be able to handle dual 4K at 60Hz from a single DisplayPort connection to the laptop.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#258

Post by ttfkam »

graphe wrote: post #133
nl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't studies, just anecdotes, and the actual study quoted in the NYT shows the opposite: > One study commissioned by NEC and conducted by researchers at the University of Utah showed that people using a dual-display machine to do a text-editing task were 44 percent more productive than those who used a single monitor. I think it's fair to say that any research from 2014 isn't the most relevant now. Both scree…

Realistically where would you position these monitors? Ergonomically there aren't many great solutions for any extended use especially once you go up to mutiple large monitors. Tilt your head in those directions and see how long you maintain them comfortably. If you think modern notifications are less distracting I'll respectfully disagree.

I had two 4K monitors in portrait mode. Meant less vertical scrolling. I generally put different contexts on different screens, eg. code/terminals on one monitor and browsers with results on the other. Laptop screen left open as well for email, Slack, etc.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#259

Post by runjake »

ttfkam wrote: post #77

Two things I've been waiting on for years: • MST (DisplayPort daisy chaining) in MacOS. The hardware has supported it for over a decade. The OS is the weak link here. It's the difference between spending $75-$300 for a dock in addition to the cables and just connecting the monitors together along with a single cable to the first monitor. • Non-soldered storage. Seriously. Storage is the most likely component to fail.…

I'm in an org with tens of thousands of Macs deployed. We've got through butterfly keyboard failures, screen ribbon issues, bloated batteries, and dead logic boards.

We've had some SSDs fail, but it's virtually unheard of. It's so rare, I can't recall a specific instance. I submit that failure rates within a Mac's usable lifetime is so rare that it's a non-issue.

That said, I'm always going to strongly want user-replaceable, modular components everywhere I possibly can. Barring that, I want cheap repair options (buying stuff like logic boards from Apple is obscenely priced.)

I also factor AppleCare+ into device cost, because forget buying a $2,000-3,000 Apple device without it.

Re: Apple's Blue Ocean

#260

Post by AdamN »

ttfkam wrote: post #257
Terretta wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when the Displayport standard (and other operating systems) support daisy chaining It doesn't support it, exactly, it supports a compressed image in each of the multiple streams transported, which can introduce quality problems when doing the production work people use higher end Macs for. "the combined data rate requirements of all the displays cannot exceed the limits of a single DP port" -- https://en.wikipedia.…

I'm not a gamer. I'd be fine with a single cable that served two 4K monitors at 30Hz from the Mac if it meant I never needed another dock ever again. That said, TB3/TB4 should be able to handle dual 4K at 60Hz from a single DisplayPort connection to the laptop.

I have dual 4k right now daisy chained from a Mac at 60Hz. Works totally fine and it was a 2019 MBP (and now a 2021 M1 Pro MBP). This is already a solved problem if you just stick with TB3+ gear.
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