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The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

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Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#251

Post by thriftwy »

Sporktacular wrote: post #250
thriftwy wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving. "No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting I…

And Russia levelled it. They could have chosen to develop it, establish courts and other institutions, try war criminals. But their intentions were laid bare when they backed a dictator with many of the same human rights problems. That's why Jataman606 called your argument disingenuous, he's right and you haven't refuted that. "Chechnya is just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities." Fi…

I think that's a "no true scotsman" fallacy. You blame Russia for not doing things that also have not been done anywhere in the world in the same time frame. And then you blame Russia for doing things that have also been done elsewhere on a grand scale.

Where are all of those Muslim countries which were turned around by courts and institutions ex machina? Even Dubai struggles with essentially the same problems as modern Chechnya.

I'm not wondering about the down votes from the people who can't take blame for ISIS and Afghanistan along other things. It's a bad but unsurprising thing that you are not smarter than that.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#252

Post by dillondoyle »

DFHippie wrote: post #170
dillondoyle wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely different scale, they are a government perpetrating genocide on their own citizens, could go on and on how they aren't the same. But the top photo of prisoner with hood and handcuffs and brutish looking military/security look very similar to some of the gross photos we saw of abuse at gitmo. Might be me putting too much emotion onto it but the guard with the bat looks like a smirk, like how the criminals a…

I think you're confusing Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. It's the latter where sadistic guards took photos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone... Ugh. The pictures in that article are horrendous. The "patriots" will say (and in fact do say -- see the linked article about Lyndie England) that the real crime is not the acts committed but making them public. The same is true of course in China w…

I am you're right ;( Sad that you can confuse those.

the photos from gitmo aren't nearly as bad, probably because there aren't many. Most I've seen are just those through the fence photos, again looks too similar to China's concentration camps.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#253

Post by Sporktacular »

sangram_jaipur wrote: post #64
ChemSpider wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an effort by many. So cut that crap. If you have real doubts spell them out clearly. Journalists e. g. from German Spiegel.de and other participating newspapers found and spoke directly with relatives of these people, and thus verified that the data leak is real.

It was founded by Heritage Foundation founders and they hold power to influence research directions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Communism_Memorial_ ... Now the report is independently verified so it is legitimate, but that does not mean the foundation does not bring direct political influence in discussions. Heritage Foundation amongst other non-scientific stuff denies Climate Change, promotes theory of…

And if 4ggr0 has reasons to question the data itself, let them spell it out instead of just ad-hominem-ing the source.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#254

Post by relaxing »

Gud wrote: post #248
skitout wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My impression is that most people do not really care about other groups... unless it indirectly talks about something they are sensible, or they can clearly identify with the victims. For example people (and media) in France don't care about violence between groups in Africa. We quite never heard about the Congo Wars, about Ethiopia, about the Lord's Resistance Army... But heard a lot about Jihadist movements in Afri…

I don't think this is true. Right now there are millions of Ukrainian refugees in Europe being welcomed with open arms, after millions upon million of muslim refugees have already entered the continent.

I wonder if the Ukrainians have something in common with the rest of Europe, that makes them more sympathetic…

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#255

Post by vmception »

shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

Okay this is some amusing and problematic cognitive dissonance.

The West gets attacked because of its military occupations in Mesopotamia. That is the criteria for Jihad. Any random teenage edgelord that happens to be Muslim can always take the pedantic “its my duty” approach at any time. The vast majority do not, any slight provocation from then on encourages that sentiment. China’s approach avoids this because they have no military occupation of traditionally muslim lands. That approach has worked better for China’s national security while operating in islamic areas, they invest and have been masterful at it. The Western/US approach never factored in its own national security, or any attempt at understanding Islam, and its been a disaster for its people and a boon to its defense contractors. The key point is that its never been about “rising up on behalf of all muslims being oppressed” its always been about “excising a cancer from traditionally islamic lands”. And that makes inaction towards Xinjiang and the plight of the Uighurs make way more sense, than the fundamentally rocky assumption that action from some unspecified Muslim people is expected to occur.

Secondly, some Uighars have already done the terror attacks within China, over “small things”. Long before the massive dragnet and crackdown. This is where China’s identity politics come into play, that some other commenters have pointed out. China’s domestic stance and behavior isn't really about Muslims, its about “territorial unity” with an undercurrent of ethnic discrimination. But ultimately the Uighers are on their own, and East Turkistan isn't going to be a thing.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#256

Post by detaro »

relaxing wrote: post #254
Gud wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true. Right now there are millions of Ukrainian refugees in Europe being welcomed with open arms, after millions upon million of muslim refugees have already entered the continent.

I wonder if the Ukrainians have something in common with the rest of Europe, that makes them more sympathetic…

> with the rest of Europe,

as you say, proximity. I went to school with people from Ukraine, I went to uni with people from Ukraine, I work with people in Ukraine right now. It's happening in weekend-holiday range from me. Makes it a lot less abstract.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#257

Post by Sporktacular »

thriftwy wrote: post #251
Sporktacular wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Russia levelled it. They could have chosen to develop it, establish courts and other institutions, try war criminals. But their intentions were laid bare when they backed a dictator with many of the same human rights problems. That's why Jataman606 called your argument disingenuous, he's right and you haven't refuted that. "Chechnya is just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities." Fi…

I think that's a "no true scotsman" fallacy. You blame Russia for not doing things that also have not been done anywhere in the world in the same time frame. And then you blame Russia for doing things that have also been done elsewhere on a grand scale. Where are all of those Muslim countries which were turned around by courts and institutions ex machina? Even Dubai struggles with essentially the same problems as mod…

Liberal reforms have been implemented by central governments al over the world. England -> Hong Kong, EU -> Poland, US -> Mississippi. That's just more whataboutism. Where other countries fail to do that, I'll fault them just as strongly too.

Not that it's relevant, since the Russian government isn't Muslim but Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Iraq, Iran have all had governments that at some point implemented liberal reforms using state institutions. And they obviously imposed that on their provinces, just as Russia could - since Russia is ultimately in charge of Chechnya, not its 'Muslim' vassalage. How long those reforms held up is irrelevant to the effort put in, which Russia doesn't even attempt because its government hates liberalism.

You've never spoken to anyone more critical or Daesh or of the instability the sudden US pullout will create in Afghanistan. And you've ignored my central argument. Dubai/Chechnya? It's pretty clear why you're deflecting.

Just be upfront that your stance is pro-Putin and your bigotry anti-Muslim and save everyone the time.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#258

Post by vmception »

DocTomoe wrote: post #46
shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

This may be related to the relatively lax response of western governments as compared to the 'full out riot control' approach China takes [1]. As for the international level, China is following a carrot and stick approach there [2] - and they have a long memory [3] [1] For a contemporary example in that region, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... [2] https://ecfr.eu/publication/china_g…

> This may be related to the relatively lax response of western governments as compared to the 'full out riot control' approach China takes

Narrator: its not

There are some other comments here on it

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#260

Post by dirtyid »

honkdaddy wrote: post #123
dirtyid wrote: post #87

[flagged]

[flagged]

If you'd ever wondered what pro-CIA astroturfing looks like, this is a pretty good example of the typical playbook.

- Accuse someone of being a shill without addressing argument - Dismiss completely valid comparisons as whataboutism

Repeat ad nauseum. It never ceases to blow my mind how deeply people are willing to shove their head in the sand in order to justify the misinformation funded by their government.

US intelligence aactively manufacturing genocide campaign against geopolitical competitor and lying about it on the world stage. That is a face, and no amount of reframing or PRC blame shifting is going to change that.

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