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Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

reuters.com

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Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#251

Post by dragonwriter »

int_19h wrote: post #249
eganist wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? Because we are not able to stand against gov? Well, we are not able. Every person can. That's why sanctions exist: to incentivize a government to focus on its people and isolate a violent government from the world, or conversely, for a people to hold their government accountable. What would you propose the world do instead of sanctions when diplomacy alone…

Did sanctions ever achieve this? If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures.

> Did sanctions ever achieve this?

Governments have changed behavior after sanctions regimes were put in place. The degree and mechanisms of any causal relationship are infinitely debatable, because it's near impossible to falsify them conclusively.

> If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures.

The government of Ukraine, who is both better positioned to evaluate the value of interventions and whose leaders have quite a bit personally at stake, doesn't seem to have this attitude of “intervene militarily or fuck off”, and has indeed been calling for sanctions and specific enhancements to them.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#252

Post by int_19h »

dragonwriter wrote: post #251
int_19h wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did sanctions ever achieve this? If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures.

> Did sanctions ever achieve this? Governments have changed behavior after sanctions regimes were put in place. The degree and mechanisms of any causal relationship are infinitely debatable, because it's near impossible to falsify them conclusively. > If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token ge…

The only clear case I can think of is South Africa, but even that had its own internal movement; sanctions merely sped things up.

Besides, Russia knew of all the possible sanctions way in advance, and proceeded to invade anyway - which already tells you how much the government there is worried about them in practice.

Biden is absolutely correct: sanctions couldn't and won't prevent anything. What he's not saying, but what follows directly, is that military force is the only option that'll work.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#253

Post by jacquesm »

netsharc wrote: post #247
jacquesm wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it took a years, so what? Poland showed the way for all of the USSR satellite states and was instrumental in the collapse of the union. I know that America likes to take credit for this through their financing and support of Afghanistan during the Russian-Afghan war but I am pretty sure that that does not properly credit all of the players. The protests gave you martial law and the lost decade, but they also gav…

I'm reminded of reddit saying they're going to shut down the USA with protest if Trump fired Mueller. Easy to say "You all should do X!", but even in the US people said "well if I skip work to protest I'll lose my job.". Telling others they should endure a decade of pain... Hah, would you do the same, in their position? (I guess the keyboard warriors will say yes...)

If this is the first tough and principled choice you have to make in your life then I can imagine it is hard. I've worked hard to put together a life that is worth living, but if it comes to Russia calling the shots here then I'm prepared to give that all up. You don't have to believe me.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#254

Post by FpUser »

nomel wrote: post #239
FpUser wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not in Russia and I did not believe that Putin will attack. I did not expect him to be that kind of retard. >"Russians need sanctions, they need to start suffering" When you talk like this about whole nation I am not even sure what to call it. Well actually I do but I did not yet have enough of HN.

I'm not the parent, and I consider the people of Russia to be a separate entity from their government. But, how do you see Putin getting pushed out of power, other than by the Russian people? If it is required that the Russian people push him out, is it not logical that they must be motivated, with the assumption that sanctions would not be required if they were already motivated enough? I'm trying to understand all…

Putin has huge internal security apparatus backing him up. He does not give a flying fuck about what people think and will not hesitate to suppress any potentially threatening activity with overwhelming force.

If you think that you can sanction / starve Russia to the point that simple people will organize, revolt and depose Putin I think you live on a different planet.

The only force that can really depose him are some competing elites assuming they have backing from enforcement agencies / military. I am not sure how you can sanction / bribe those into action.

Personally I think the West had quite a few years to sort things out between Russia and Ukraine. I think it was possible. I do not have any real proof but I suspect that instead of trying to find some meaningful compromise they were playing hard ball and are now reaping a "reward". What to do now - I have no frigging clue as the situation is out of control.

As for the subject of "suffering" - purposely starving the whole nation and keeping people hostage I think is what scumbags do / advocate.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#255

Post by NikolaNovak »

int_19h wrote: post #248
NikolaNovak wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? I feel bad for people in Russia who don't want that war either, sanctions will hurt. But: 1. Sanctions are a way to exert pressure and say "don't DO that". They're supposed to hurt. The other effective way to send that message is to use actual force. I'm sure people of Russia would prefer that less . 2. As a kid from Sarajevo, I feel Ukrainan's pain a LOT…

Sanctions that hurt the general populace are not an "effective message" for the simple reason that said general populace is not in charge of "DOING that".

My statement (about sanctions being a message or behaviour modifier) is no more of an oversimplification than yours (about populace not being in charge / not being able to modify their country's behaviour)

At any rate, if we want to engage in a productive discussion, let us enumerate alternatives and rank them. I'll start

* Sanctions * Military Engagement * Assassination * Covert policy, government, elections influence

What other means does the world have to say "please don't do that"? Which are preferred over / should come before sanctions, and why?

I don't mean this to sound antagonistic. I'm tremendously frustrated because I agree sanctions are weak, mis-targeted and won't drive sufficient change fast enough. But while I can rail against them, I don't genuinely know what else is left on the plate. One participant is acting like a violent bully. At that point, once discussion/education/negotiation has failed, there's really no good options for anybody left.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#256

Post by int_19h »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #255
int_19h wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanctions that hurt the general populace are not an "effective message" for the simple reason that said general populace is not in charge of "DOING that".

My statement (about sanctions being a message or behaviour modifier) is no more of an oversimplification than yours (about populace not being in charge / not being able to modify their country's behaviour) At any rate, if we want to engage in a productive discussion, let us enumerate alternatives and rank them. I'll start * Sanctions * Military Engagement * Assassination * Covert policy, government, elections influen…

It's not that the sanctions don't drive change fast enough - it's that they don't drive them, period.

The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#257

Post by dragonwriter »

int_19h wrote: post #256
NikolaNovak wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My statement (about sanctions being a message or behaviour modifier) is no more of an oversimplification than yours (about populace not being in charge / not being able to modify their country's behaviour) At any rate, if we want to engage in a productive discussion, let us enumerate alternatives and rank them. I'll start * Sanctions * Military Engagement * Assassination * Covert policy, government, elections influen…

It's not that the sanctions don't drive change fast enough - it's that they don't drive them, period. The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again.

> The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again.

The US aid package just announced includes security aid that is a sizable fraction of Ukraine's annual defense spending, on top of preexisting direct security aid. And the US isn't alone. Sanctions aren't the only response.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#258

Post by adriand »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #229
adriand wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no issue with free access to Internet discourse! In fact, I wish we had more free access to Internet discourse. What I object to is the commodification of attention, the deployment of sophisticated algorithms intended to drive clicks/views (and thus promote the most divisive and controversial viewpoints), pervasive surveillance, and so on. I don't think regulating these facets of our present-day technology, wh…

> What I object to is the commodification of attention, What exactly would you regulate or "crack down" on? People are free to choose what websites they visit. This idea that evil social media companies have used technology to force people to view content they don't want to see has gotten out of hand. > the deployment of sophisticated algorithms Again, what exactly would you regulate away? Ban websites from showing r…

Which do you believe, that there is no problem, or that there is no solution to it?

I believe there is a problem, and I also believe it is possible to solve it in a way that upholds democratic values.

If you don’t think there is a problem, then we see things very differently, and we’re not likely to agree. But if you agree there is a problem, why not advocate for a solution?

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#259

Post by mardifoufs »

jacquesm wrote: post #195
willcipriano wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada they just had protests that crippled the country, they just took food and the ability to bank or heat themselves from the protestors until they gave up. No change. Imagine if Trudeau had a gulag.

That was a few hundred people at best. Anyway, I can see that you believe strongly that protests don't work, I've been eyewitness to protests that did work and that changed the direction of a country (in fact, multiple countries) in a massive way. Those instances are rare, but that's an existence proof that you can't deny (and there are, historically, more examples). Note that the support for those Canadian protests…

I'd assume support for those anti war protests in a time of war is probably lower than the support for the truckers in canada (which wasn't that low, 30-40% of the population). Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ? Especially since appearing to undermine a war effort is usually universally despised once a war starts. Even the iraq war started with 90% of americans rallying behind bush and supported the war, so the legitimacy of the war itself does not seem to matter a lot.

Re: Russia to restrict Facebook access for 'censoring' its media

#260

Post by myko »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #213
myko wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

protests worked in russia in 1917

Wasn't it an armed uprising?

Unless I'm misunderstanding the request here that is what folks are truly asking the Russian population to do. Someone must physically cast Putin down within Russia itself. I agree peaceful protests inside the country will not work.
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