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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's because one of the biggest hiring firms for mathematicians is the NSA.

For clarity, let me emphasize: The people I'm talking about stood out among professional mathematicians, not just among the general population.

Presumably that's because the alternative line of employment for mathematicians is academia, which I can imagine pays even worse.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#252
post #200

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

I think this does not tell the whole story. I will show you three countries that are outperforming the vast majority of countries and why: - Switzerland: Switzerland is undoubtedly one of the richest countries. I contribute this largely to the fact that they have a direct democracy. All laws are voted upon by the people which makes lobbying much harder. Who profits from lobbying? Almost exclusively BigCos. - Singapor…

Well that depends how you define lobbying. I live in Switzerland and referendums very frequently have large advertising campaigns attached to them - sometimes unopposed (that is, there is no noticeable advertising campaign for one of the options). There is definitely money in politics. Of course that is not necessarily a bad thing. The adverts alert people to an upcoming vote they may find interesting, primarily.

Also Switzerland is notoriously bureaucratic. Even very simple tasks require visits to one of the many, many small government offices that dot the landscape and each interaction always costs hundreds of dollars ... even when the act itself is basically "print out a piece of paper and give it to you".

But I fully agree that direct democracy creates better quality of government in general.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#253
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the thing about working for the government. You’ll never make more money than the president.

In the UK it’s not unusual for the head of a local council (running a city or a county) to make more than the PM. University chancellors make even more.

Yes but pay for both is a topic of frequent controversy. Does anyone really think it's harder to find a university chancellor, or that it requires more skill and time, than being prime minister? Or is it the result of correspondingly greater monitoring and accountability on politician's salaries vs the essentially unaccountable university system?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.

He's not exiled? The US wants him back very much.

(Presumably so they can kick his teeth in)

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#255
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or termination in the private sector is rarely and indicator of quality. In 23 years in the private sector, I've only once had reason to fire someone because they didn't do their job properly, and I've seen exactly one more developer fired in the companies I've worked in for similar causes. The thing is, in most cases you can move people "sideways and effectively down" - there are always grunt work that needs to be d…

This is fine if the performance is low but positive and if, as sibling comment points out, your organisation can absorb large amounts of waste. When an employee's performance is actually negative, i.e. they make things worse rather than better e.g. due to personality issues, then moving them around isn't going to work well.

It's worked well in every company I've worked in. The one person I fired is the only one of hundreds of developers I've worked with whose performance was actually negative once we'd tried to shift people around, and while some were probably "wasteful" for a while until we found work they could do that justified their salary, most were not.

A lot of the time people are just not in the position that's right for them.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's usually the most capable people with that cash available (because they had more earning power in the past) It's far more typically because of inherited wealth, which has no bearing on ability but is quite often misinterpreted as such.

Well, this might be a very unpopular opinion, but if generating wealth correlates to intelligence and ability, and these traits are transmissible to children (either genetically, or through practices that parents teach to their children, or through higher educational investment), then you would expect a positive correlation between ability and amount of parental wealth. This above argument could easily be wrong, but…

I know that's just anecdata and not representative, but: Donald Trump.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#257
post #88

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

> Government employees tend to excel at working organisational politics

I think that any large bureaucracy, including ones in big corps, attract people like this.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#258
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I'm from a small city in a poor region of the UK. I find that many friends from that area work either at the local council or the NHS (hospitals etc), Education or decentralised government agencies e.g. Tax, vehicle licensing, immigration etc. They tend to be one of the few employers with highly skilled work available in those areas for people who don't want to or won't move to more affluent areas where the big companies are located. This is a primary reason for people working for the government and I'm sure this is true in small town US too.

Not for me, I moved to London as soon as I graduated, but later moved back to a medium sized city, as a compromise.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#259
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or termination in the private sector is rarely and indicator of quality. In 23 years in the private sector, I've only once had reason to fire someone because they didn't do their job properly, and I've seen exactly one more developer fired in the companies I've worked in for similar causes. The thing is, in most cases you can move people "sideways and effectively down" - there are always grunt work that needs to be d…

> Or termination in the private sector is rarely and indicator of quality. I never said it was. My comparison would be on termination for dissatisfactory work. Regardless, the attitude that poor performing people can just be reassigned and/or languish seems to be one held exclusively by those working for companies that can absorb waste (or governments). I worked at IBM, I saw it plenty. Peer quality and management's…

> I never said it was. My comparison would be on termination for dissatisfactory work.

My comment applies to that too: One fired out of hundreds of people I've worked with.

It costs money to hire and fire people all the time - most of the time chances are good it's cheaper to shift people around than get rid of someone to hire a replacement.

> Regardless, the attitude that poor performing people can just be reassigned and/or languish seems to be one held exclusively by those working for companies that can absorb waste (or governments).

In my case my career has been almost entirely startups. It's worked fine.

> But you're telling me and other SMBs that now in my small business of 6 people I can just move people?

That's how it's worked in every small company I've worked in.

> Or otherwise that I now have an unhealthy corporate culture?

Yes. I for one - as someone generally seen as high performing - would leave if I found myself in a company where people got fired all over the place. I don't want to work in that kind of toxic environment. As such you're creating additional risks when you keep firing.

> Though your intentions and sympathy are admirable, the approach has led to corporate bloat and an inflated supply of employees in the field (at least in software).

I work in software, and as I mention, I'm not seeing it. What I keep seeing are low performing people who often become good at obscuring how poorly they perform because they know if they stick their head out, they'll face the axe rather than a chance to find a better fit.

And many are very good at it. I've had CV's from people with very distinguished careers that couldn't code fizzbuzz if their life depended on it.

A sign of how dangerous that is, is how often I see people call out e.g. performance improvement plans or training plans as a "trick" that will get you managed out. Because some places they are used mostly to get rid of people rather than to improve people.

It sets up an extremely adversarial environment, and I suspect that given a perpetual lack of understanding of the need to actually provide proper training and support for new managers in tech, that peoples capability to obscure low performance far exceeds managers ability to root it out most places.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#260
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The class system? In 2017, really? Or do you mean that GCHQ chooses to hire exclusively from the limited pool of Oxbridge graduates and can't change their internal culture such that they could hire school leavers at 16?

It’s still part of the civil service at the end of the day. The pool of people who can both cyberattack our enemies and conjugate Latin verbs is a very small one!

I read this in Sir Humphrey’s voice. Thanks for that.

You’re not wrong though. I know someone denied an MOD posting because they were Irish and had a chemistry degree.

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