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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#191

Post by gaius »

jedanbik wrote: post #14
smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

That’s the thing about working for the government. You’ll never make more money than the president.

In the UK it’s not unusual for the head of a local council (running a city or a county) to make more than the PM. University chancellors make even more.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#192

Post by girardthelinear »

mrep wrote: post #31
qmalzp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non-militaristic culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. I honestly don't understand why someone would work for the NSA given the choice.

And about matches FANG companies for bachelor degree graduates (I know Amazon's is now 145k total comp starting and I think the others are even higher).

145 total comp would not be very high lol. FB returning intern bonus was 100k alone thanks

also NSA Intern/FT pay was much much lower. I'm not sure where you're seeing that they match

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#193

Post by watwut »

prewett wrote: post #142
mindslight wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.

Generally breaking the law and seeking to escape the consequences has always resulted in effective exile, throughout history. In fact, how could it not? Would you like the law to be suspended in this case, but not in the case of people leaking secrets to China? Where's the difference? Is it just that what you like should be an exception? You could argue it was patriotic to break the law, but working for the NSA hardl…

He did accepted the consequences. The consequence is his life now, quite literally. He has zero trust toward legal system as that is not designed to be fair. He his not willing to become martyr more than is necessary - and there is nothing wrong with that.

Rosa Park consequences went well beyond being arrested for one night. I am pretty sure she would prefer if she had the option to escape them - she did not. Altrough she did eventually left the city, due to consequences imposed on her there.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#194

Post by [deleted] »

mozumder wrote: post #176
qmalzp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non-militaristic culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. I honestly don't understand why someone would work for the NSA given the choice.

I designed & architected supercomputers at the NSA as a teenager, starting as a co-op, using manufacturing tech that still isn't public decades later. LOL @ the idea of anyone in private industry giving me the opportunity to do that. These are some of the smartest, yet most normal people in the world. They don't go apeshit about free food or Silicon Valley startups. You'll never get fired, and you can raise a family…

[deleted]

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#195

Post by eivarv »

shaklee3 wrote: post #131
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I agree with what you say, but you attacked OP for not providing evidence, and you didn't provide any either.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, though.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#196

Post by avh02 »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #174
kodablah wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need a powerful spy organization to compete on the world stage I disagree or at least don't agree to the extent I might have in a more embattled time (i.e. any time in the past). I do agree intelligence serves the military well, I just don't agree with military intelligence scope growth at a time when military use is shrinking. I'm not sure history repeats itself here as much as perpetuates the justifications be…

If you're interested in the subject, https://www.amazon.com/100-Decisive-Battles-Ancient-Present/... is pretty fantastic. "Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler would referee. Violence, naked force, has se…

Personally I'd think that in more modern times, as close as we've been to wars (e.g cold war times, which I'll admit predates me), there are probably countless times where frantic phone calls and backroom diplomacy (importantly, that you do not see) have saved everybody's skin from war (or nuclear war).

I'll admit, this is speculation, but I'd be seriously blown away if not true.

But yes, sometimes nations just have to battle it out. I'm just not one of those people.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#197

Post by rdl »

I remember predicting this back when the Snowden first leaked, and someone popular on HN saying it wouldn't happen. I suspect the reorg and general politics outside NSA have had a bigger impact than "oh, spying is wrong" in popular culture, though.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#198

Post by kamaal »

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

>>It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation.

Pension, and other retirement benefits are awesome though. Over a period of time that actually makes up for everything else.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#199

Post by mindslight »

prewett wrote: post #142
mindslight wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.

Generally breaking the law and seeking to escape the consequences has always resulted in effective exile, throughout history. In fact, how could it not? Would you like the law to be suspended in this case, but not in the case of people leaking secrets to China? Where's the difference? Is it just that what you like should be an exception? You could argue it was patriotic to break the law, but working for the NSA hardl…

Talking about "the law" is a red herring. The NSA is in explicit violation of USG's founding charter, and yet it remains in comfortable operation.

But more importantly, the concept of patriotism is orthogonal.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#200

Post by caloon »

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

I think this does not tell the whole story. I will show you three countries that are outperforming the vast majority of countries and why:

- Switzerland: Switzerland is undoubtedly one of the richest countries. I contribute this largely to the fact that they have a direct democracy. All laws are voted upon by the people which makes lobbying much harder. Who profits from lobbying? Almost exclusively BigCos.

- Singapore: Singapore pays it’s top officials a competitive salary. The Prime Minister earns close to 2m dollars. As a result, Singapore attracts higher qualified staff for state positions.

- Estonia: Estonia’s growth since its independence some 25 years ago has outperformed nearly every Eastern European country. The reasons for this growth are their lean government, a high degree of digitalisation (nearly all government services can be accessed online), and an innovative culture at the state level.

In brief, a lot of the inefficiencies in government agencies come down to the facts that in many countries these agencies are intensively lobbied, risk-averse and - as stated by you - do not reward performance (i.e. efficiency improvements and innovation).

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