Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#251

Post by jboynyc » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 10:59 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #232

ueushzvzis wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument tha…

I don't really want to get into the gun control debate here, since that isn't the point of the article. But if you compare the developed countries, you will find that the USA has by far the highest firearms homicide rate. Obviously some of it is cultural, for instance, I'm from New Zealand, and I was raised with the attitude that if you own firearms, you should (almost) never use them for shooting people. They're for…

A sociologist has helpfully been visualizing the data on assault deaths for a few years now; here's the latest:

https://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2017/10/02/assault-dea...

The comparison always makes one thing unmistakably clear: the U.S. is an exceptionally violent country among OECD peers.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#252

Post by gozur88 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:03 AM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #224

ueushzvzis wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument tha…

Got any statistics to back that up? I mean, it’s anecdotal, but how many school shootings have there been in the USA vs any non gun owning nation? Last one in the UK was Dunblane - and then they banned guns.

The school shootings are irrelevant statistically. They make the news because they're upsetting, but you're more likely to be beaten to death by someone's fists than shot with a long gun in the US.

The vast majority of gun crime is done with handguns, and much of it is already illegal - i.e. felons in possession of guns or people carrying when or where they're not legally allowed to do so.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#253

Post by aquadrop » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:04 AM UTC

andrewstuart wrote: post #41

Portugal’s policy is deeply flawed because it does not legalize the sale of all drugs, only the consumption. When selling is legal is when organized crime leaves the picture, taxes can be collected, product is clean and measured and of quality. Both sides of the equation are important to legalize, doing one without the other means huge problems remain.

I don't think _selling_ is a must, but the end user should have an ability _to get_ the drug. Marijuana should be sold and profited off (though regulated) to serve as a barrier so people won't have to switch to hard drugs. But hard drugs should be controlled more tightly. It can be a special block at hospitals or something like that, where a person can come and get the dose, maybe even free. But that place should also provide help and ways to overcome the addiction - opportunities for rehabilitation courses, education prospects, psychologist and previous addicts who got clean etc. It should be an outpost for fighting hard drugs addiction. Yes, that will required money, but it can come from all the savings from 'War on Drugs'. And if user will have an ability to get drugs there, criminals will still lose profits, and yes, I agree that removing profits from the criminals is one of the main points of "legalization".

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#254

Post by minikites » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:05 AM UTC

rusk wrote: post #189

Tyco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US legalizes gay marriage and now they have Trump. Rebuttal?

I think there may be something to this. Though perhaps a better term than "rebuttal" is "backlash". The conservative backlash has long been mooted by social commentators. It's likely a large cohort of Trumps voters were those who were incensed by "central government interfering in local affairs", in particular the case of Kim Davis springs to mind. Never mind that Trump doesn't exactly embody conservatism, I'd imagin…

>I'd imagine a large amount of conservative voters, alarmed by social progress would have voted him out of spite.

Most conservatives are driven almost entirely by spite:

http://science.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/29/17971903-to-figh...

>When the more expensive CFLs were sold without environmental messaging — but touted the fact that CFLs last 9,000 hours longer than the less expensive incandescent bulbs and reduce energy costs by 75 percent — more conservatives bought them.

>The ideological divide was strongest when energy efficiency was tied to the environmental message of reducing carbon emissions.

See also: the entire concept of "rolling coal" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal).

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#255

Post by kstenerud » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:07 AM UTC

andrenth wrote: post #150

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Brazil has a homicide rate of 26.74 per 100,000, of which 19.99 are from firearms.

The USA has a homicide rate of 4.88 per 100,000. of which 3.60 are from firearms.

It's also interesting to note that the USA has the highest homicide rate of all "first world" nations, trailing close behind wonderful places like Kyrgyzstan and Somalia. The next highest "first world" nation, Canada, is 1.68 (1/3 of the USA), of which 0.38 are from firearms.

The USA has the most lax firearm laws of the three I mentioned, and also has a high proportion of homicides perpetrated using firearms. Canada has somewhat stricter laws and a considerably lower rate from firearms. Brazil has extreme gun control, but still a very high rate from firearms.

The link between gun control and violence seems inconclusive to me. However, the base propensity for violence is definitely tied to the culture.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#256

Post by andrenth » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:08 AM UTC

omnimus wrote: post #174

andrenth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Lol this is exactly what above comment talks about. You are picking the country that fits that narrative but forget about all of the rest. Brazil compared to US is so poor and with shitty corrupted police. US police prides itself on being the best most sophisticated in the world i dont se a reason why they would have problems doing same job as police in europe. They would have it in fact much easier. Also the fact th…

> You are picking the country that fits that narrative but forget about all of the rest

A proof by contradiction only requires one single example.

> Brazil compared to US is so poor and with shitty corrupted police

That's true but completely unrelated to gun ownership. The police has to deal with people who don't care about gun ownership laws.

> Also the fact that Brazil has gun problems even when guns are prohibited does not mean that it would be better if they were allowed and everyone would carry one. What is this logic wtf.

Criminals can be absolutely sure that citizens won't be able to protect themselves.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#257

Post by yAnonymous » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:12 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

>there's a bunch of people that say it's going to cause the corruption of society

Well, just look at the US. Political correctness is getting totally out of hand and the same is happening more and more in European countries.

Changing traditions causes a lot of entitlement in people who also feel that they should get a special treatment and it seems that there's no end to it. In a democratic society, entitlement from small groups is a societal cancer.

And equal legal partnership rights aren't even good enough for many. They absolutely need to have it called marriage, a word that has had a different religious meaning for hundreds of years. It's like these people intentionally try to cause trouble and I can understand why others don't want any of it.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#258

Post by gozur88 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:13 AM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #209

ohfunkyeah wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah! you've hit the nail on the head why the pro gun people are so adamant about not giving an inch to any sort of increased regulations. Most on the pro gun regulation left do not seem to be able to even fathom why closing the gun show loophole is a non-starter or how there can be push-back against banning guns for people on the terrorist watch list. It's because either are effectively turning the burner on very very…

Exactly. And people advocating stricter gun laws can't afford NOT be open about this. "We don't want to take your guns, we want to change attitudes so your grandchildren won't wan't to own guns, and most importantly won't feel the need to own guns". That said - gun show loophole is just that - a loophole. Should be fixed. I think those who want to keep responsible gun ownership also need to realize they have a lot to…

>That said - gun show loophole is just that - a loophole. Should be fixed.

The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer. It's not a loophole. It's simply the case in most states in the US for private sales you're allowed to sell your gun to another person without checking with the federal government first, something that's not true of dealers.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#259

Post by oeuviz » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:15 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #232

ueushzvzis wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument tha…

I don't really want to get into the gun control debate here, since that isn't the point of the article. But if you compare the developed countries, you will find that the USA has by far the highest firearms homicide rate. Obviously some of it is cultural, for instance, I'm from New Zealand, and I was raised with the attitude that if you own firearms, you should (almost) never use them for shooting people. They're for…

> I was raised with the attitude that if you own firearms, you should (almost) never use them for shooting people.

This is key info here. People in different corners of the world react differently to owning weapons. While some are taught to only use them as tools, others have them for fun. While some will only shoot them to kill pray, others will shoot at people. It already shows in the shooting ranges, in some parts of the world they are equipped with only numbers as target, others enjoy building a simulation close to an FPS game.

Let us break down, what is necessary to have a firearms homicide:

  a) ownership of / access to a gun
  b) reason to kill
    b1) malicious intent
    b2) self-defence, extended self-defence

So self-defence or extended self-defense would be the only reason for owning a gun with the intention to point it at other humans.

- What is it that makes gun owners believe that there are no other means of defending themselves or their families but killing (or at least shooting at) the aggressor?

- Is it assumed, that if the "good guy with gun" kills the aggressor, more than one other human being is saved from death?

- Is it worth having a human killed because the good guy would have "only" faced a robbery and therefore only economical loss?

- Does crime really decrease because good guys kill bad guys?

- What is the worth of a human life, regardless of criminal background of the individual?

Because the answer to the questions above is different in each culture, country and individual I do not think comparing the aproaches of different countries to decrease crime (including firearm homicides) is helpful here. Different communities have different approaches to deal with same problems and having only [Edit: formatting]

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#260

Post by ionised » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 11:15 AM UTC

thriftwy wrote: post #226

yznovyak wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to provide any source for your claim? Here's mine: http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/drug-use/b... Singapore has 0.18 drug related deaths per 100k population. With a population of ~5.6 million people this means 10 deaths per year for whole country. In comparison Portugal has 3x higher drug related death rate. Regarding executions you can check wikipedia: > However, since the 2010s, execution has…

Wow, this chart is awesome! It displays that, the worse life is climate-wise, the more drug abuse there is. Especially pronounced in Europe. As you go more inland and more to the north, drug deaths increase. Is it a coincidence? Don't think so. This way, Singapore was never in any danger, it's warm and coastal. And not in sub-Sakhara. Neither was Portugal, come to think of it! Thus it's a stretch to promote their sol…

> It displays that, the worse life is climate-wide, the more drug abuse there is.

How did you get that from that chart? It clearly shows South Africa and Australia as having high drug-related deaths and they are as south as you can get.

A more accurate observation would be that developed countries with a heavy emphasis on individualism and a lack of communal culture experience the highest drug-related deaths.