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What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#251
post #137
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like she is lacking self confidence, personality. Is she living in a fantasy world where everybody is kind? I was not here, so I don't want to juge, but she has only been asked to sit on ones lap, she could have strongly refuse and asked why she would do that in the first place. She should have shown strong signs of rejection, express the fact that is make her uncomfortable and asked him to stop. If he does no…

Again I don't want put any judgement, but maybe the lap thing was only a bad joke, it all depends on how it is asked. And maybe there was a misunderstanding between the 2, she could have taking thing too seriously while the manager was trying to lighten the mood.

The only misunderstanding was that one person thought it was ok to harass/make unwanted sexual jokes to a subordinate.

In case of abuse, it's never the victim's fault for having "misunderstood" the situation. The person in a position of power bears all of the responsibility and is the person who should have known better.

Stop blaming the victim.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, your view is not valid. Assuming you actually read the article, you probably didn't read this part: "In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,” among other wildly discomfiting, work-inappropriate things. Then I was asked to dinner alone." That racist comment alone is reas…

Help me understand how it's not appropriate to directly tell someone who is making it obvious that they are attracted to you that you aren't interested. If you make it known that you aren't interested and the person continues. Then it becomes harassment. So I refute your position. We all have to set boundaries in our relationships and the author of the article is no exception.

No.

There are many cases where your "explicit opt-out" scenario doesn't work:

1- It's not ok for a colleague to assume they can enter your office naked unless you tell them not to. They cannot assume they have your permission to publicly expose their dangly bits near you simply because you didn't tell them they shouldn't.

2- It's not ok for colleagues to take money out of your wallet and use it unless you tell them not to. The default is "no", your wallet is off-limits, and such an action can and will be considered theft.

3- People who are uncomfortable with sexual intimacy (either because that's their personality, or because they are prior abuse victims, or for whatever reason -- they really shouldn't explain themselves to you) should not have to be exposed to unwanted sexual attention at the office, especially in an asymmetrical situation where the other person holds power over them. The reasonable expectation is that the office is not a place for sexual intimacy by default. Note that the boss here has no way of knowing how the victim will feel about sexual intimacy, which explains why the boss should not attempt it at all in the first place.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#253
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this was in the US, where people do not kiss colleagues on the cheek. I know your intentions are fair in mentioning this cultural practice but that sort of justification also presents a fair amount of minimization of obvious harassment. I mean, do you kiss everyone on the cheek in Spanish-speaking countries or just very close friends?

I live in France, and it is natural to kiss on the cheek. Recently I was in UK and without even thinking about it I kissed a girl on the cheek to welcome her. After it happened I just realized what was going on. The thing is that it takes some time to reframe your behavior. But I have also been away several months and then it was feeling weird for me to kiss a girl on the cheek.

Recently had a French colleague do this to me in New Zealand. Was nothing short of hilarious. I made a warning sign for his desk.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#255
post #247

> In hindsight and with more experience, I now can say, “Yes, I shouldn’t have tolerated even a little bit of misogyny or mistreatment. I should’ve immediately given him feedback that it made me feel extremely uncomfortable.” But regardless of my own reactions, the fact remains that sexual harassment should never have happened in the first place. Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send ou…

> Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate.

Sigh. This is nonsense.

Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called "signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that women actually send signals men completely miss, while men actually pick up signals that were never sent.

A woman should never have to expend extra effort to clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. An easy way to guarantee this is to constantly be mindful of your actions and never do anything inappropriate.

General rule of thumb as a man: treat physical interactions with women in the workplace the same way you do other men in the workplace--inherently non-sexual. Second rule of thumb: all that sexual conversation you might be used to having with other men--don't do it with women.

It's for this reason that expecting the victim of unwanted behaviors to send subtle signals first is pretty silly. If we're going to suggest anything, let's not go with something subtle and ambiguous that is likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted by the person who is already behaving inappropriately. Instead, let's opt for expecting something like this:

That's fucking offensive. Don't ever fucking do that again. This is your only warning.

Pretty clear. Straight to the point. Pony up an apology, or admit that you're being a lecherous fuck.

Don't feel comfortable being direct? Go directly to HR.

Don't have HR? Give that "fuck off" directive a go. Worst case outcome? You realize this isn't the place for you and move on.

---

> Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise.

Bullshit. Here are examples of "something physical without any bad intentions" that are pretty impossible for women to misinterpret:

- high fives

- fist bumps

- shaking hands

- a pat/slap on the upper back or shoulders to say good job

- a light punch/slap to the arm in an obviously playful way (probably only best with well-known company that already trusts you)

Oh, and if you actually are paying attention and notice a woman recoil in any way from these types of interactions: make a mental note to not do that again. There's probably something in her past experiences that makes her uncomfortable with this, and it really doesn't put you out at all to remain mindful of that as you interact with her in the workplace.

Here are examples of "something physical" that cannot hide behind "no bad intentions":

- touching a woman anywhere, in any way, not covered above

- kissing a woman anywhere, in any way

- asking a woman to sit on your lap

- positioning yourself in such a way next to a woman that you intentionally make physical contact of an intimate sort

Why? Because women can fucking tell when you're making an advance. And men cannot hide behind a silly schoolboy's defense of "mixed signals".

After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals. I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance.

General rules:

1. Treat every woman with absolute respect as a person, not as a sex object, every time.

2. Don't interpret or estimate your probability-of-fucking.

3. Trust that women don't really ever play "hard to get". Ever.

4. Trust that women will make it very clear when they're inviting you to increase physical intimacy.

5. Understand that just because a woman smiles or is nice/polite/kind/open, doesn't mean she is saying, "I want to fuck you."

6. If in doubt, ask don't act.

General suggestions:

1. Allow a woman to set the tone of physical intimacy. Reply in like kind.

It's really, really, really easy to tell if a woman is physically/sexually/romantically interested in you as an adult. She will typically do more than simply "send signals". If a woman trusts you enough to touch you on the arm, it's probably okay to touch her arm. That doesn't mean it's okay to rub her arm. If she touches you on the leg, it's probably okay to touch her on the leg. But feel free to ask, cos there's no harm in that. She might be doing it subconsciously, and you'll be able to alert her to this without groping her leg and making her feel assaulted. If she's rubbing your arms and legs, that's a pretty unmistakable indication that she's feeling safe, trusting, and probably okay with you returning the same level of physical touch. But that doesn't mean you should grab her breasts and jam your tongue into her mouth.

At the club on the dance floor? Don't walk up and start grinding some woman with your junk. If the lady wants to grind, she'll make the move. And then she might want to go do the same on some other guy. C'est la vie. Why? Because she's often just out to have a good time, not find someone to go home with. If she is looking for someone to go home with, follow the directives above and you'll be certain to never find yourself the perpetrator of a sexual assault or harassing behavior.

2. Just because you like feeling like a piece of meat, doesn't mean she does.

I have experienced, on more than a few occasions, a relatively unknown female coworker telling me I have a nice ass, or some other such physical attribute. Cool. Flattering. My response: laugh it off. I don't turn around and say, "Well, your ass is damn fine, too." Accept the compliment. For whatever reason, some women think it's okay to do that. And they can be the same women who would be offended if you did it to them. Big deal. That's how it is. They know when they're attractive, because every fucking dude in the world tells them so. Don't ever be that guy--unless you're actually in a relationship with her; then, by all means, tell her all the time. Just steer clear of making comments to a woman in the workplace about her appearance. 100% guaranteed success rate there.

3. Physical intimacy doesn't belong in the workplace.

This one's pretty damn easy. Even when I've been in a serious relationship with a coworker, we never brought that into the workplace. There's no need to kiss in the office. Or have my girlfriend sit on my lap. Or touch her in an intimate spot. It's the fucking workplace. Treat it as such. All the more fun when you get home later. It can wait.

---

I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#256
post #180
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is. It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.

Well, Ashe Dryden's pretty much debunked this whole line of reasoning better than I ever can. So I'll point you at that https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/dissent-unheard-of If you're still unconvinced, you might want to start examining your own sample bias.

Having read the article, nothing there explains why you feel that using a sub-group that self-selected for a particular characteristic we're examining is a better sample of a population than a randomly selected one.

As I re-read the paragraph I just wrote above, I can't feel but be amused by your suggestion that I should examine my own sample bias despite your blind defense of your own; in other words: your presumption that somehow yours is "better" or "truer".

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Parent comment's dismissal is based upon details revealed in the article, or rather details that weren't revealed. He suspects that, since the victim escalated immediately, the victim may not have wanted a peaceful resolution. We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were other ways to handle it. 2. Yes, I expect you to say that you're upset by the situation. I cannot read your mind; mo…

> We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were other ways to handle it. So it's safest to assume that the victim of sexual harassment is at fault, of course. > because otherwise they may assume nothing is wrong. So in this scenario, you're taking the stance that the Manager at Google has no concept that asking an inferior employee to sit on his lap could be unacceptable workplace behavior…

So to review:

everybody: obvious potential liar

everybody: potential blameless victim of ignorance

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she must have This is called "projecting".

Since you are just cherry-picking, I realize now you aren't actually interested in debate. One wonders why you even bothered posting your original comment.

You say cherry-picking, I say baseless assertion without a shred of evidence. Potato, tomato.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#259
post #21
post #11

I'm not going to speak directly regarding the way this individual handled this situation, but in general, if you experience any form of sexual harassment I highly recommend you speak with HR immediately following the incident. Don't allow it to escalate, things can only get worse. Even if it's your first day on the job, you should never feel speaking to HR regarding an incident is a bad idea.

Can you really trust HR to do the right thing?

In this case, yes. It's in their best interest to protect the company and not the manager; a scandal like this would probably be much more damaging to the company than firing any single executive.

Re: What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

#260
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help me understand how it's not appropriate to directly tell someone who is making it obvious that they are attracted to you that you aren't interested. If you make it known that you aren't interested and the person continues. Then it becomes harassment. So I refute your position. We all have to set boundaries in our relationships and the author of the article is no exception.

No. There are many cases where your "explicit opt-out" scenario doesn't work: 1- It's not ok for a colleague to assume they can enter your office naked unless you tell them not to. They cannot assume they have your permission to publicly expose their dangly bits near you simply because you didn't tell them they shouldn't. 2- It's not ok for colleagues to take money out of your wallet and use it unless you tell them n…

1 (public nudity) and 2 (stealing) are illegal.

Flirting and talking about sex (3) aren't.

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