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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

theatlantic.com

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#251

Post by flubert »

winter_blue wrote: post #250
flubert wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about $62/month for the mortgage on this 973 sq. ft. home: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/103-Baker-St-Cooperstown-N... ...looks pretty nice, with a good sized yard.

Wow! It's crazy how cheap that house is. I'm simply at a loss for words...

If that mortgage is too much for you, here is a house for one tenth that ($6/month):

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/12169-Findlay-St-Detroit-M...

...1029 sq. ft. for $1700. But if you are looking for real rock bottom prices, it is hard to beat $500:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/14421-Wilfred-St-Detroit-M...

...There are photos of the interior, and it looks like it is in a good neighborhood on Google Street View:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/14421+Wilfred+St,+Detroit,...

Call me impressed. I wonder what the closing costs are on a property like that.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#252

Post by kamaal »

jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

>>only a relatively small number of key decisions separate our two economic outcomes.

Not just key, those are life altering decisions. I still remember my friends who chose civil/mechanical engineering over CS'ish fields(Electronic, IT, Computer science) because they wanted a better college, than a better course. I remember friends and cousins who chose to go into fields like literature/arts. I remember kids in my school who dropped out because their father's business was good enough. Most of them aren't doing good. But back then they justified their decision on all sorts of grounds, yet they didn't have to make them at all.

At each step it felt like I was getting lonelier along the way. It was tough, but it was worth it.

People make stupid decision and they make them for no rational reasons at all.

Here is another hint, your sister and you are probably even now making small decisions over time which will make you 10x worth more than her, another 15-20 years from now.

Small decision add up to big things. Especially the kind of decisions which can change the direction of your life.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#253

Post by kamaal »

randycupertino wrote: post #99
jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

>> However in some ways, he has it better than me.

You can too. Buy it now, and leave it. Once you are done with Silicon Valley madness you can always go back and settle there(May be even retire?).

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#254

Post by kamaal »

sosuke wrote: post #202
pc86 wrote: post #199

Am I the only one that finds it odd after reading an article about someone making $11/hr in factory losing their job, the top-voted comment (and a good number of the replies) is one lamenting their $150k salary?

I think that illustrates, emphasizes even, how unbalanced the society is. You feel poor at $15k, $50k, $100k and even the dual income families of $250k feel on a razors edge.

Well that is because humans perceive value of owner ship of resources same regardless of geographies. If your brother had a ranch while making $30K/year. While you are barely struggling to pay rent at $100k/year, you would feel the same.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#255

Post by laotzu »

Retric wrote: post #248
laotzu wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not so much indicative of human nature as a whole as it is of "civilized" or industrialized cultures. Tribal cultures often exhibit the opposite sort of sentiment. >Primitive commodity money, like the magical words of non-literate society, can be a storehouse of power, and has often become the occasion of feverish economic activity. The natives of the South Seas, when they are so engaged, seek no economic advan…

A large part of this is how money is not really integrated into their society. It seems really natural for us to consider tokens of value to have meaning, but wealth takes many forms.

Indeed, tribal cultures are far less reliant on all types of abstractions, whether it be money or the written word.

Therein lies the problem it may be: we have become lost in abstraction and confuse money with real wealth. It's like we can never get enough because we are starving ourselves eating the menus instead of the dinner while at the same time not realizing that there is only so much dinner one can eat before becoming sick.

The more we rely upon abstraction, the more disconnected we become from the reality which that abstraction is supposed to represent.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#256

Post by kamaal »

vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

>>These people are not middle class. They don't have middle class values or sensibilities.

The issue is if you've tasted riches for a while, its hard to wash away the feeling that you are some how special and entitled to money, regardless of the choices, decisions and the work you do in your life.

Upgrades to a higher lifestyle is easy, downgrades are tougher, painful and emotionally taxing to a lot of people.

Never upgrade if you can't sustain.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#257

Post by jfoutz »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #234
jfoutz wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to that liberal bastion, the Wall Street Journal, in it's most favorable light, median worker compensation has only gone up about 40% since 1979 [1]. On the other hand CEO compensation over that period has gone up about 1000%. [2] We can quibble about sources if you like, but according to this [3] it's taken about 50 years to double income. If you take a long look at that same graph [3], productivity has cl…

Tl;Dr my hypothetical of everyone getting richer is an accurate description of reality. Also, formerly excluded groups (e.g. women) saw faster income growth than the former privileged class (white men).

No. the WSJ graph shows high school level education and lower men of any race being about 10% worse off than 1979. 40% of americans only have high school education so, uh, like 70 million people or so.

Everyone getting richer is not an accurate description of reality.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#258

Post by cableshaft »

greggman wrote: post #143
johnloeber wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software testing is not software engineering. Testing generally doesn't pay as well. Be careful: if you're doing an engineer's job, then you deserve an engineer's wage. 30k/year would certainly be very low for a software engineer with a degree. For a software tester, it still appears low. According to glassdoor[0], the median US wage for a software tester is $67k. If you're making $30k, then you're probably being und…

Saw an ad for game programming job in Osaka recently. It paid $9 an hour. Not uncommon in Japan

I know at least seven years ago there were quite a few Japanese game studios that were struggling to stay afloat and thus were providing very attractive costs of development (less than half the cost of an American studio).

I was working at a video game publisher at the time and we tried to take advantage of it, being an American company but with roots in Japan, but there was some cultural and communication issues that helped lead to products that didn't sell too great and negated all benefits of cheaper development in the first place.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of those companies are still struggling today.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#259

Post by adevine »

thenomad wrote: post #112
adevine wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree, especially with the concept of universal basic income. Over the past couple years I've come closer to the conclusion that the middle class is pretty much doomed, and it will take a big change in our economic system to cope. A middle class fundamentally requires a large number of well-paying "repetitive" or "algorithmic" jobs. Doesn't matter if they are blue collar or white collar, but there need to be…

There's another element to this too which multiplies the problem: whether the competition is on a local or a global scale. Consider being a chef vs being a filmmaker. If you're the best chef in a city, you'll be in considerable demand. See, for example, Tom Kitchin in Edinburgh, who is justifiably rather famous and whose restaurant is booked out months in advance. If you're the best filmmaker in a city, by contrast,…

Completely agree, and that's also a reason why the internet is making it hugely difficult for large swaths of society to compete - what used to be many smaller markets, each with room for its own winner, is now a single giant market (for the most part) that can only support one winner (or very few) in total.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#260

Post by kamaal »

taurath wrote: post #106
vinceguidry wrote: post #77

I will never miss an opportunity to trot out my favorite quote: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright Americans are just going to have to get over themselves and figure out how to cooperate with their peers. We will take any opportunity to lash out at the ones we love. Dude's wife left him aft…

I hope when all the software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

>>software and entrepreneurial people on this forum are going through hard times instead of good as we are now we are not judged as harshly as you judge those going through harder times now.

If all the software guys going through a party now, make the same mistakes they will end up with the same problems.

I'm not sure what this is considered harsh. You end up the consequences of your actions, is this concept really that hard to understand?

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