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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#241

Post by kethinov »

dpark wrote: post #236
kethinov wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which says a lot about our political discourse. "Rich by the standards of where" the author came from is arguably just middle class, but the author's family probably doesn't see themselves as poor and would balk at characterizing the author as only middle class. Meanwhile, the author can't even afford a house where s/he lives which calls into my question my characterization of that salary as even qualifying as a midd…

> the author's family probably doesn't see themselves as poor I suspect a single mother making minimum wage would most definitely recognize that she's poor. > and would balk at characterizing the author as only middle class. This is probably true. Middle class is so inconsistently defined, though, that it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about what constitutes middle class. > Meanwhile, the author can't even…

For what it's worth, I've met an alarming number of people making minimum wage or close to it who see themselves as middle class and see those making only modestly more money as rich.

From what I've observed, it seems to be based on what feels normative to their social groups. If most of the people you know make minimum wage or close to it, it feels normal, and therefore you're strongly motivated to believe that's what middle class is.

As for $71k median income in SF, I would not personally define that as middle class. To me, middle class is the capability to own at least a modest home and have significant ability to save for retirement. You can't do that on $71k in SF. As such, I would characterize the majority of SF residents as being less than middle class.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#242

Post by cableshaft »

jahewson wrote: post #222
VLM wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>extras usually in the form of various culture and activities Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit. What dense, e…

> Note that the average local more or less intentionally can't afford the time or money to visit the tourist traps. If you are not rich and want to visit the museums and galleries of Chicago, or attend a Bears game at the stadium, or a music concert, you can't live in Chicago because then you'd be too poor, you have to live elsewhere and visit. Ah, but that's an American perspective. In Britain museums and art galler…

As someone who lives near Chicago, the museums have a few free admission days for Chicago residents pretty much every month (and some libraries around here let you "check out" free passes).

However, the free days are often during the weekdays and I think during work hours, so lots of working people can't really take advantage of them very often.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#243

Post by flubert »

brightball wrote: post #173
randycupertino wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you. My brother is a restaurant manager in the middle of Kansas making 30k a year. And he is a smart guy who was a MATH MAJOR at a state school! He could come out here and get a job at a startup and make 80k easily. But he won't leave his inlaws family, so he's stuck in Kansas. There is some strain and resentment in our relationship over our income differential, sure... especially when I want to complain that…

Yea, cost of living is a big deal. I live just outside of Greenville, SC in a little town called Easley. When graduated from college I had an 1100 square foot, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a washer and dryer for $500 / month that was 10 minutes from downtown Greenville (beautiful, booming area - http://www.visitgreenvillesc.com/ ). Also have some of the cleanest water in the country, which I never really appr…

How about $62/month for the mortgage on this 973 sq. ft. home:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/103-Baker-St-Cooperstown-N...

...looks pretty nice, with a good sized yard.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#244

Post by SilasX »

inanutshellus wrote: post #181
jurassic wrote: post #94

This level of inequality makes me sad. Really sad. I know I can't be the only working stiff in the valley whose poor siblings and family think they are rich for earning in the $100-150k range. Nevermind that I can't afford to buy a house here. I can't enjoy my success because of the near-desperate financial situations I see my relatives enduring. My sister gave me a $50 gift for christmas, and it brought tears to my…

RE: Christmas - I'm sort of on the opposite end of that problem, but the way we solved that is to do a Dirty Santa party instead of giving individual gifts to everyone. That way the affluent relatives don't feel guilty for providing cool gifts to everyone and the less affluent don't feel ashamed for providing what they can. ("Dirty Santa" is where everyone brings one gift -- we do $10 -- and then you play a game wher…

I've heard of that by the name White Elephant gift exchange.

Edit: Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_elephant_gift_exchange

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#245

Post by pc86 »

kethinov wrote: post #241
dpark wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the author's family probably doesn't see themselves as poor I suspect a single mother making minimum wage would most definitely recognize that she's poor. > and would balk at characterizing the author as only middle class. This is probably true. Middle class is so inconsistently defined, though, that it's hard to have a meaningful conversation about what constitutes middle class. > Meanwhile, the author can't even…

For what it's worth, I've met an alarming number of people making minimum wage or close to it who see themselves as middle class and see those making only modestly more money as rich. From what I've observed, it seems to be based on what feels normative to their social groups. If most of the people you know make minimum wage or close to it, it feels normal, and therefore you're strongly motivated to believe that's wh…

Are we just making up definitions for "middle class" now? Just because everyone disagrees on what income constitutes middle class does not mean you get to ascribe whatever you want to it and redefine the phrase itself. Home ownership is a signal but is not itself indicative of middle class. As dpark pointed out there are many homes available for under $500K in the SV region. That is certainly doable on a six-figure salary.

And ability to save for retirement is merely a signal too - it has never been used as any kind of barometer for what is middle class.

If we're talking about middle class as it relates to income - which is what people mean the vast majority of the time they use the phrase - then $71k is middle class, full stop. If you exclude the bottom 20% and the top 20% of incomes (the widest generally accepted income range for middle class) you get $47-140k. And this is household income, not personal income.

San Francisco is the outlier in terms of salary, and if you try to project that onto the US as a whole, you end up with statements like "As for $71k I would not personally define that as middle class."

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#246

Post by JBReefer »

Spooky23 wrote: post #23
bitL wrote: post #11

As a non-american I would like to ask: did the affirmative action go too far up to the point of endangering another group? If so, what correction steps would you take?

Affirmative action is a non issue, a straw man at best. The plight of the working class is about free trade and reprioritizing economic policy. Union busting sent business to the South, NAFTA sent it packing. Now even high end service jobs are at risk. A local hospital voted to unionize, and immediately afterwards the ER fired everyone and ships in visiting nurses from 400 miles away. It keeps the local labor hungry…

Affirmative Action is absolutely an issue for Asians, but I agree it doesn't really do much to white people.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#247

Post by brightball »

flubert wrote: post #243
brightball wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, cost of living is a big deal. I live just outside of Greenville, SC in a little town called Easley. When graduated from college I had an 1100 square foot, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a washer and dryer for $500 / month that was 10 minutes from downtown Greenville (beautiful, booming area - http://www.visitgreenvillesc.com/ ). Also have some of the cleanest water in the country, which I never really appr…

How about $62/month for the mortgage on this 973 sq. ft. home: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/103-Baker-St-Cooperstown-N... ...looks pretty nice, with a good sized yard.

Too cold for my tastes, but same idea. :-)

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#248

Post by Retric »

laotzu wrote: post #228
Retric wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We get used to excess really easily. "What if people find out my husband only made 85 million last year." Note: That conversation actually happened and the person was worried about how they were going to cut back their lifestyle. With the clear implication that 85 million was just not enough.

It is not so much indicative of human nature as a whole as it is of "civilized" or industrialized cultures. Tribal cultures often exhibit the opposite sort of sentiment. >Primitive commodity money, like the magical words of non-literate society, can be a storehouse of power, and has often become the occasion of feverish economic activity. The natives of the South Seas, when they are so engaged, seek no economic advan…

A large part of this is how money is not really integrated into their society. It seems really natural for us to consider tokens of value to have meaning, but wealth takes many forms.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#249

Post by kethinov »

pc86 wrote: post #245
kethinov wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I've met an alarming number of people making minimum wage or close to it who see themselves as middle class and see those making only modestly more money as rich. From what I've observed, it seems to be based on what feels normative to their social groups. If most of the people you know make minimum wage or close to it, it feels normal, and therefore you're strongly motivated to believe that's wh…

Are we just making up definitions for "middle class" now? Just because everyone disagrees on what income constitutes middle class does not mean you get to ascribe whatever you want to it and redefine the phrase itself. Home ownership is a signal but is not itself indicative of middle class. As dpark pointed out there are many homes available for under $500K in the SV region. That is certainly doable on a six-figure s…

There are two ways to look at the middle class:

1. The actual statistical average or median whatever that number happens to be is the middle class, full stop.

2. The middle class is the ideal standard of living one should expect for people who are neither rich nor poor.

I happen to subscribe to the latter philosophy. The middle class is whatever range of incomes it takes in a given city adjusted for cost of living to own a modest home and save significantly for retirement. SF's median income can't do that.

That used to be how we defined the middle class a generation or two ago, back when home ownership and solid retirement plans were more common.

Nowadays it's less common to make enough income to support that lifestyle in many cities and people who can afford it are being increasingly referred to as rich.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#250

Post by winter_blue »

flubert wrote: post #243
brightball wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, cost of living is a big deal. I live just outside of Greenville, SC in a little town called Easley. When graduated from college I had an 1100 square foot, 2 bedroom, 2 bathroom apartment with a washer and dryer for $500 / month that was 10 minutes from downtown Greenville (beautiful, booming area - http://www.visitgreenvillesc.com/ ). Also have some of the cleanest water in the country, which I never really appr…

How about $62/month for the mortgage on this 973 sq. ft. home: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/103-Baker-St-Cooperstown-N... ...looks pretty nice, with a good sized yard.

Wow! It's crazy how cheap that house is.

I'm simply at a loss for words...

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