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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#241

Post by riggins »

jvictor118 wrote: post #214
riggins wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to put my reply in context. I live in NYC. I used to be in the WTC on a weekly basis for business. I was in Rockefeller Center when anthrax was found in Rockefeller Center (that was actually kinda scary). I'm aware that 'PRISM' purportedly prevented a NYC subway bombing. This isn't to say I'm 'so brave'. It's just to give the context that I'm not removed from the situation. With that context, I'd much rather take my…

"My brother got killed in a subway bombing, but at least the government can't read my facebook messages about porn and cat pictures..." REALLY? Could you say that with a straight face to a victim's family member?

Really. I can say it easily. It's a risk I'm willing to accept and a risk I would hope every patriotic American would happily accept to preserve our liberties.

BTW, where does your logic stop?

My brother got killed by a drunk driver, but at least the government can't read my facebook messages about porn and cat pictures...

I'm sure we could cut down on drunk driving fatalities (10K / year) if we applied the NSA to the problem. Should the government search through Facebook messages and Gmail to see if people are writing stuff like 'man I drove hammered last night'?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#242

Post by cloudwizard »

jvictor118 wrote: post #214
riggins wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to put my reply in context. I live in NYC. I used to be in the WTC on a weekly basis for business. I was in Rockefeller Center when anthrax was found in Rockefeller Center (that was actually kinda scary). I'm aware that 'PRISM' purportedly prevented a NYC subway bombing. This isn't to say I'm 'so brave'. It's just to give the context that I'm not removed from the situation. With that context, I'd much rather take my…

"My brother got killed in a subway bombing, but at least the government can't read my facebook messages about porn and cat pictures..." REALLY? Could you say that with a straight face to a victim's family member?

That is a false decision as well as an unlikely result. False Positives are 1000x more likely than actual positives.

The more likely result is 100000's innocent Americans are placed on the no-fly list, thousands of innocent non-americans are waterboarded in Guantanimo, etc for each potential terrorist stopped.

Most terrorists are incompetent and would get stopped get good police work or fail because the bombs do not explode.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#243

Post by rbanffy »

talmand wrote: post #168
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are all the street protests?! The people who went to the streets protesting in 2011 got arrested. You're looking at the maturation of a tyrannical, authoritarian neoliberal regime.

There were groups who have protested who had no serious arrests to report. There were some groups that had a heavy amount of arrests. If one were to look at all the groups protesting recently with an objective eye I'm sure examples can be found that show why one group had such results.

Could you clarify that?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#244

Post by belorn »

rayiner wrote: post #36
belorn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?" No, people are just sent to Gitmo to be waterboarded and held indefinite without a trial. They don't even care the nationality of where you come from.

This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.

There is a whole article on wikipedia on the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantana...

That said, US citizens has been sent to gitmo. They might been transferred out of there at a later time, but there is no denying that it happened. Then we have people like José Padilla who was held for several years without a trial, and only after major pressure from civil groups was he transferred to a civilian court. Being indefinite held without a trial until political pressure pushes the issues to the breaking point does not exactly paint a great picture.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#245

Post by jvictor118 »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #124
DannoHung wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manning was a member of the Army. You give up a significant number of rights and freedoms as a US citizen when you become a member of the armed forces. Which is not to say that it is right, but that it is legal.

At this point, American law is completely corrupt. Who gives a damn about it? What they've done to Bradley Manning isn't right, at all.

Bradley Manning was a member of the Armed Forces who released classified information to the public. What planet are you living on that his prosecution is unwarranted?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#246

Post by kbenson »

Abundnce10 wrote: post #235
munificent wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are all the street protests?! I'm going to interpret that question literally. A key thing you have to keep in mind is that in almost all of the US outside of a few very large cities, the "street" is not a useful public place. People don't gather and interact on streets in the US. They are merely channels for cars. Protesting on the streets would be as useful in most cities in the US as wandering around next t…

You bring up a good point. Maybe the best form of protest these days is not to take to the streets but rather take to the highways. Blocking a interstate highway going into/out of a large city might get more attention.

This would be remarkably effective at getting attention, but I'm not sure how beneficial to a cause it would be.

If the purpose is to disrupt travel or commerce, it would most likely achieve it's goal almost immediately. If the purpose is to bring attention to some other issue and the disruption of the highway system is unrelated (or only tangentially related), then the attention would have to be weighed against the negative impression it creates for the many affected.

I don't have the relevant experience in this area to know under what circumstances protests that negatively impact average people succeed in their goals.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#247

Post by hopeless »

josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

(grew up in the UK, live in Ireland)

I don't consider the U.S. as the same as China or Russia (or North Korea, etc) but I don't consider them in the same league as any European country either.

Having said that, I think the U.S. is more of a danger outside its borders than China/Russia/N. Korea.

I haven't travelled to the U.S. in the last 10yrs, despite wanting to for conferences or meetings or a wedding, because I consider it to be a hostile environment.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#248

Post by DrJokepu »

zmb_ wrote: post #56
josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

As a European I wouldn't say I see the USA in the same light as China and Russia, but I definitely feel uncomfortable when I have to travel to the US for work. Given the US's recent track record with human rights and the ongoing mass surveillance, I just can't be sure some innocent comment on some website I've made at some point won't flag me and cause me to be indefinitely detained. I know it's probably not likely,…

I'm also European, I travel to the United States at least once a year and I have never spent longer than 60 seconds at the US border, and that includes scanning my fingerprints. The officers doing passport checks have only ever asked fairly reasonable questions such as how long I am staying for, what the purpose of my travel is and occasionally asking about my occupation.

However, my (US citizen) wife gets harassed here at the UK border all the time; a couple of months ago she was detained at London Heathrow Airport for several hours by the UK Border Agency for no particular reason.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#249

Post by gyardley »

tibbon wrote: post #101
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

Interestingly enough though, that 'right to bear arms' actually gives zero protection from the government as theorized- even if the gov't is acting in a corrupt manner. If this guy was in Texas holed up with a small armory, the FBI would still bust in there and arrest him. If he tried to use that small armory (and wasn't killed) it wouldn't have just been him 'exercising his right' of course.

While the right to bear arms doesn't give one person the natural ability to resist overwhelming force, it does make imposing tyranny on larger numbers of people rather expensive for the tyrants.

Let's say the government wants to send my family to a death camp - perhaps for a racial, ethnic, or religious affiliation. (Historically, this does happen from time to time, even in countries that were 'liberal democracies' in the recent past.)

The government would absolutely be able to do so - I've got no fantasies about my ability to resist a government agency. However, I could certainly try to make it expensive for them, and I might succeed. If enough people are similarly inclined to make things expensive for them, the price may grow to be too high for the government to pay.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#250

Post by anon1385 »

rayiner wrote: post #102
anon1385 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been […] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_v._King Justice Ginsburg , dissenting. The Court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment ’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then…

You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws. Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No. That's why the 4th uses the wiggle word "unreasonable." I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime. I do too, but lots of people d…

>You're haggling over the definition of "reasonable", probably based on your views of the drug laws.

I'm not haggling over anything. You asked "Are police knocking down your door without a warrant?" I provided the answer, additionally evidencing that the debate over the 4th amendment is not as static as you seemed to be implying.

>Do you think that in 1800, the framers would have considered it an unreasonable search to enter a home they could hear being burglarized? No.

Do you think that in 1800 the framers would have considered hearing the sound of a flushing toilet or people moving to be exigent circumstances?

>I'd bet the reason you think Kentucky is different is that you think drugs are a non crime.

I am not somebody who obsesses over drug law[1]. My reasons for disagreeing with the ruling are better expressed by Ginsburg which is why I provided the link to her dissent, which I recommend you read.

[1] although it's pretty clear that many current drug laws in the US are broken and highly destructive to society. Personally I don't and have never used any illegal drugs so I have no 'skin in the game' so to speak and fear of getting (legitimately) busted by the police over drugs is not a concern I have. So if you are picturing some pothead who spends all day reading the High Times and proselytising about the benefits of weed that isn't me

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