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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#91

Post by randomsearch »

newbie12 wrote: post #12
_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

Interesting. But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#92

Post by mcherm »

euroclydon wrote: post #10
josephagoss wrote: post #2

Americans might not realise this but we see the USA in the same light as China and Russia when it comes to freedoms. We might be wrong, but thats the perception myself and many other people from outside the USA see the current state of the situation. To think anyone would feel safe in the USA is ridiculous, the USA is one of the last places anyone should seek refuge in modern times. What scares me most is the United…

You certainly do not speak for everyone outside the U.S. who has asked themselves the question: "Can I name a U.S. reporter who has disappeared or been murdered for producing material critical of the government?" or "Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?"

> Are U.S. citizens routinely arrested and placed in re-education by labor camps for a year without a trial?

No. But US citizens are routinely arrested and placed in solitary confinement (widely held to be worse than a labor camp) for decades without a trial (guilt is nearly always resolved via plea bargains using the threat of even more years). And by "routinely" I mean the highest incarceration rate in the world: about 0.75% of the population.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#93

Post by rgbrenner »

asynchronous13 wrote: post #59
rayiner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. Even US citizens capptured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban were transferred out of gitmo.

Except for Yasser Hamdi, it took them a few months before they realized he was a u.s. citizen.

And when they found out he was a US citizen (about 6 months after capture), he was transferred to military jails in Virginia and South Carolina. He was in the system for a total of 3 years, and then in exchange for renouncing his US citizenship and agreeing to travel restrictions, etc, he was released and deported to Saudi Arabia where he grew up. Note the phrasing, he wasn't 'transferred' to Saudi Arabia, he was released, and given a plane ticket home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaser_Esam_Hamdi

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#94

Post by ryanhuff »

lemming wrote: post #34
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. It's pretty clear from the last couple of days that the balance in the US is pretty firmly tipped towards tyranny by that definition. Certainly I doubt anyone in the government is at all worried about the people being able to do anything about this scandal. There have been several comments on here and elsewhere…

I think some politicians (supporters of this policy) are very worried about this, in that it could turn their base against them, and be vote out of office. We will have to wait and see how public sentiment turns.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#95

Post by stevoski »

powertower wrote: post #87
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

What you posted are a few negative events. What you did not post are the few million or billion positive events that happened at the same time. What you're reading/seeing is an ever increasingly opinionated and vocal crowd that think they possess the truth and are right about everything. They want a perfect system. And a simple system. And worst of all, they don't know what they don't know (how utterly destructive th…

> "that think they possess the truth and are right about everything"

All those things I listed are well-documented. For the sake of keeping my post short I didn't post links to the appropriate Wikipedia articles nor to mainstream US online newspapers that reported the events.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#96

Post by VLM »

onebaddude wrote: post #61
taktix wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's becoming a one government world. A New World Order.

I'll never understand the opposition to a single, global, government entity. It seems like the most logical plan. Otherwise, you get multiple countries playing the zero-sum game of gaining at the expense of other countries. Exactly what we have now. You know, like exploiting the resources of poor countries so we can have cheap gasoline. Good system?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, so you're guaranteed to have a 100% fail, a worse outcome than your zero-sum game, which merely fails most of the time.

What's most likely is an oligopoly of multinational corps really being in charge, with a thin veneer of democracy as a marketing message to keep the population under control. "You're not really feudal serfs because you get to vote for your overseer, among two candidates selected by the plantation owner who only differ in minor, yet rabble rousing irrelevancies" Or rephrased, the American system, but worldwide. It may not be a good system, but its a stable system.

We already have it, to some extent. Is there any real ideological/moral/ethical difference between the neo-cons and the taliban other than minor stuff like selection of holy book (said by a former -R who more or less got kicked out by the extremist fundamentalist neos)?

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#97

Post by mixedbit »

mbesto wrote: post #76
Jare wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My overall, fact-less impression is that the UK has already cast a pretty wide public surveillance net. They don't seem to be actually using it for enforcing anything, however. I don't think I would blink twice if it turns out they have a PRISM-like operation going on.

CCTV runs like mad across the UK. Well at least London. Almost every street corner here has a CCTV vid cam on it.

Right: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bansky_one_nation_un...

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#99

Post by [deleted] »

xradionut wrote: post #70
stevoski wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, as a New Zealander living in Spain. I've been staggered over the last decade or so to hear of the USA performing: * "extraordinary renditions" (kidnapping), sometimes of the wrong person who after months gets dumped in Albania. * "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding (torture) * holding people indefinitely without charge or trial in Guantanamo Bay * killing people remotely in foreign coun…

Most of the US populous has jobs, beer and entertainment. Plus they might with the lottery some day and join the 1%.

[deleted]

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#100

Post by eli_gottlieb »

mtgx wrote: post #32
newbie12 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to bear arms is also, explicitly, a protection against tyranny BY the government. Thomas Jefferson: ""When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

Where are all the street protests?!

The people who went to the streets protesting in 2011 got arrested. You're looking at the maturation of a tyrannical, authoritarian neoliberal regime.

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