Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#241

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:45 PM UTC

boppo1 wrote: post #181

JanSt wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

>cultural appropriation As I remember it, this really took off in popular culture after native americans got sick of dude-bros/girls wearing war bonnets to music festivals. Around 2012-2014 it was a hugely popular piece. When 'cultural appropriation' came up then I mildly agreed with the sentiment because the look was pretty openly disrespectful. And then it expanded like kudzu until digital hairstyles became off-lim…

as a native american myself, I have no recollection of anyone I know ever taking issue with this.

I don't doubt there was someone somewhere complaining, but similar to the rename of the washington redkins, most of us didn't give a shit.

The most grumbling I've ever heard around this is complaints that pow-wow's are too commercialized but, if anything, that was criticizing our own tribes.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#242

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

JanSt wrote: post #161

traverseda wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strongest form of that argument I know about is really about how capitalism is eating the world. It's a common refrain that "white people have no culture", but if you replace "white people" with "globalized capitalism" it starts making more sense. Everyone drinks the same can of coke and eats the same grocery store sushi. If you look closer at the woke crowd you'll see that grocery store sushi is pretty "white".…

That's a really weak argument. 1) It has nothing to do with racism but uses the accusation of someone being racist as a tool to push an agenda. 2) Japan still makes good sushi. Supermarket sushi has not destroyed japanese sushi culture 3) I'd argue that capitalism has made the world better in pretty much every aspect. You could argue that capitalism has destroyed the environment, but the fact is that leftist countrie…

It could be argued that water makes people healthier, yet it's also documented to kill people.

Because it turns out nothing is perfect, including capitalism.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#243

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:49 PM UTC

fieldcny wrote: post #143

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication is clearly that "woke" is an effete privileged liberal attack on the poor and oppressed. It's ridiculously transparent libertarian/conservative PR. As others have said - far more directly abusive and entitled privileged beliefs are endemic among the very rich. If they weren't they wouldn't spend so much time strike-breaking, stealing pay, flouting laws and regulations, buying politicians, and proselyt…

The two are not mutually exclusive. The fact is worrying and getting angry about things like cultural appropriation is something one can only do if they have the time and energy to. Most laborers are too concerned about being able to pay their bills, provide for their dependents and too tired from difficult labor to get that upset about a Chinese Basketball player wearing dreads.

and doing so beside their minority brethren.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#244

Post by bryanrasmussen » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:51 PM UTC

JanSt wrote: post #230

danaris wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, no; it's absolutely part of it. Cultural appropriation involves the dominant culture taking practices (including things like clothing, music, dance, etc, especially if it's part of a religious practice) of a colonized or marginalized culture, removing them from their cultural context, and using them for their own purposes. That's absolutely subjugating the identity of the colonized: it takes these parts of their…

As I said, the european/my german perspective does not see this - at least what I have learned. An essential motive of colonialism was the missionization and education of the "primitive, uncivilized race". The Germans saw it as their task to civilize the colonial population by introducing them to German culture and the Christian religion. Other colonial powers, such as Great Britain or France, also followed this ideo…

well I mean that's cool that you have a different opinion of the meaning of the term, but the term was created as a critique of the effects of colonialism / post-colonialism and first use of the term comes here AFAIK https://www.archivesdelacritiquedart.org/wp-content/uploads/...

I guess I'm sort of old fashioned, when a concept is coined by some person I go with their definition and not what my feelings on it as a Dane might be.

cooking African food because you like the taste would probably not be cultural appropriation as the concept was originally defined, although I guess people may feel that is what it means now.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#245

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

Neil44 wrote: post #216

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A high-paying job in finance or tech is not what rich means. Rich means ownership and rent-seeking . It means dominating some part of your culture to the extent that you can force your will and desires on significant numbers of people - often against their personal interests. One of the best examples is the health insurance industry, which bankrupts half a million Americans every year - usually people who have been p…

Rich is a subjective term but your definition of it is strangely unusual and specific.

most likely because they resemble the more general understanding of the word rich.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#246

Post by mech987987 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 1:55 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #222

JanSt wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

The term "cultural appropriation" has been widely misused and diluted by people who don't really understand it. If I, a white man living in upstate NY, were to don Haudenosaunee ritual gear and record myself performing a traditional dance of theirs, that would be cultural appropriation. It refers to a dominant culture taking the trappings of a colonized or otherwise marginalized culture and using them for entertainme…

Among the people that care about cultural appropriation, there are so many different interpretations of which acts are offensive that it is a minefield of uncertainty. A lot of it feels to me like a vocal minority trying to railroad the discussion.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#247

Post by denton-scratch » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #229

denton-scratch wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private jets, yachts, personal cooks and butlers are truer symbols of the upper class. Those are all signs of wealth; most classy people would actively avoid them, even if they're wealthy. I'm from the UK; I suspect that in the USA, it's easier to raise your social class by simply spending money. Here, social class by default is inherited. It's reinforced by where you went to school. Most people of high social clas…

"class" and "classy" are different words. "class" is a social status. "classy" is a behavioral style.

OK, I accept that distinction. But IME it's the behaviour that confers the status. Sure, wealthy people can have status despite behaving like oiks; but that kind of status isn't "upper class". Class is recognized from how you speak, how you treat others, your taste, and things like knowing which fork to use.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#248

Post by notaustinpowers » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

JanSt wrote: post #132

indigo945 wrote: post #101

> When I was growing up in foster homes, or making minimum wage as a > dishwasher, or serving in the military, I never heard words like “cultural > appropriation” or “gendered” or “heteronormative.” > > Working class people could not tell you what these terms mean. But if you > visit an elite university, you’ll find plenty of affluent people who will > eagerly explain them to you. I figured out as soon as I saw the l…

cultural appropriation As a european, I just can't wrap my head around this. How is it racist if I like a food of an other culture so much I cook it? Or I like a hairstyle of different culture so I also want to wear it. Or clothes. Or making music. Or.... I mean, I admire all that stuff so much that I want it to be part of my life. How is this racist?

Some of the comments I see kinda get to the point, but not all the way. I've grown up in a fairly liberal part of the southern US, with a high African American population so these are the kind of conversations I encounter fairly often.

Cultural appropriation is widely understood to be when someone in a position of power (most commonly a white person) utilizes something that is heavily related or socially seen as "part of" a minority community. For example, a white person wearing a Native American headdress. The issue that the minority community has with that is that they are routinely belittled or put down for participating in that part of their own community. For example, a white person wearing a Native American war bonnet to Coachella is appropriation, as war bonnets are culturally significant to Native Americans and you have to earn the ability to wear one. Meanwhile, many white Americans still put down Native American customs as "witchcraft".

When it comes to food, music, or clothing, you're pretty good there. It's primarily just avoiding things that are culturally or spiritually significant to a culture. I.E., don't wear a headdress if you're not Native American, don't act like you're the best rapper ever if you grew up on a farm in Kansas, or say you make the best gumbo in the world if you've never even been to New Orleans.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#249

Post by gizmo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 2:09 PM UTC

cmcaleer wrote: post #208

gizmo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is pretty incendiary so I won't go through it point by point, but I'd like to emphasize the distinction between defunding (i.e. demilitarizing) and abolishing the police. Abolishing the police altogether is more of a utopian goal and very few people think society can function today without some kind of police. That said, the typical day-to-day work for a police officer doesn't require violence or the thr…

I really don't think I'm being too incendiary. I didn't want to just spew bile, I'm frustrated at the wasted opportunity and the fact that those who have suffered most from it are those who those with the luxury beliefs were purporting to represent, and tried to show how these beliefs have harmed those who they're purportedly protecting. People shouldn't kid themselves about the consequences if they campaigned for th…

Reform requires political will. And political will typically materializes when reform (a) benefits the politicians directly, (b) is made beneficial by lobbyists, (c) the public loudly demands it.

For (c) the question is: how to get the public worked up enough about an issue that they take to the streets and demand change? Nuance and careful analysis don't motivate people like catchy slogans and impossible demands.

Young people who chant impossible slogans sometimes really change society for the better. People who think in shades of gray and dream of carefully considered incremental change tend not to be involved with political action at all.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#250

Post by hooverd » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

lupire wrote: post #228

hooverd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I studied in the engineering and not the gender department (we barely had liberal arts IMO), and I too learned how to read. Maybe the cultural elite, like starbucks baristas and people who work in HR.

I think you missed a word or few in there.

Nah, you see this belief that baristas and grad students are the real elite. It goes back to thinking class is a cultural thing. So your rural landed gentry is working class because they own a truck.