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"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

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Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#241

Post by cube13 »

sek wrote: post #225
cube13 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model S is somewhat disruptive. It's closer to almost affordable(around $50,000 base price after US tax breaks) than the Roadster(which was $109,000 base). Very few people could afford roadsters. More people can afford Model S', but it's still out of reach for the vast majority. I would argue that the Nisan Leaf is MUCH more of a disruptive force, because it's relatively affordable(starts at $27,700), and is avai…

This is so funny, did you even read the post you responded to? You make the same mistake, you think in a feature spreadsheet category. Efficiency, Luxury, Price and Power. In these categories was the first iPhone a joke and every competitor made fun of it. Get the book and then you understand why many people here are talking about Tesla and not Nissan.

The iPhone, when it was released, was something completely new, though. There was literally nothing like it on the market at all. Almost nobody had multitouch functionality. Nobody integrated a content market in the same way Apple did. And nobody made a smartphone as easy to use as Apple.

Tesla is targeting existing markets, making a product that looks pretty damned similar to other available products. They're not targeting the general public(like Apple). To compete on this level, their features are exactly what people talk about.

Also, the Roadster IS disruptive in one of those. Efficiency.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#242

Post by d2vid »

Tossrock wrote: post #231
rdl wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Based on time in a Roadster, and what I've seen of the model s, I would be totally happy with the S in the bay area, and either rent or keep a second car for trips out of the bay. With a constant level of tech, sure, the city car makes more sense, but assuming you can afford the high tech batteries, the tesla seems like a great car for how Americans use cars. If I weren't getting a model s, I'd probably g…

Carpool lanes are two people in the Bay Area. Did you mean you had zero rather than one companions, or were you unaware of the law?

If you have an electric car and get a permit you can drive in the carpool lane alone: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#243

Post by nknight »

pbreit wrote: post #189
nknight wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a bug, it's an inherent technological limitation.

No it's not. There are a variety of ways to engineer around this property of the batteries.

Then perhaps you'd care to share one? Or maybe just start cranking out magic batteries and become uber-wealthy?

Since you haven't done that, I find it more likely you have no clue what you're talking about.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#244

Post by mellifluousmind »

I am actually curious that if it is a fundamental design issue with battery, how are major car makers like Nissan handling its Leaf car?

If everyone bricks their car needs to pay 40K for the replacement, it would be outrageous and all over the news. Personally, I do think that Tesla could have done more to make sure drivers are fully aware of this issue before making their purchase. Otherwise, I wouldn't put my money in Tesla stock, as they are sitting dock and waiting for class action lawsuits

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#245

Post by admiralpumpkin »

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

So your argument boils down to: Tesla would be a true innovator if they only tried to convince us hedonist Americans that we should drive loud, uncomfortable vehicles?

Gotcha.

Count me on the other side. Tesla is slowly moving down market, and at the same time (hopefully) the technology will improve so that we can easily convert over to electric without compromise.

I do grant you your point on range though. If the average person drives 10 miles, then I don't think our goal should be a 300 mile range car. That's pointless engineering. I do not grant quietness or AC or build quality or style or safety.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#246

Post by 3am »

rbanffy wrote: post #214
3am wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most ethanol is net energy negative. Brazilian sugarcane is an exception, but it loses some of its advantage when it's shipped to the US in tankers. Even then, sugarcane requires non-renewable inputs (just not as much as corn). Cellulosic ethanol (from plants that can grow well on marginal farmland, like switchgrass) _is_ still in its infancy. Also, most current engines would need to all be retrofitted to run on…

> Even then, sugarcane requires non-renewable inputs (just not as much as corn) I'm not aware of any. Fertilizers? > most current engines would need to all be retrofitted to run on anything much greater than E85 because of the greater corrosion OTOH, once the engines get retrofitted (mostly a surface treatment, IIRC), ethanol burns much more cleanly, with much less combustion residue buildup. The early engines had co…

That is very, very cool. Thank you for posting the link and for the details on retrofitting the engines. I don't know if you're in Brazil, but my understanding is that they are way ahead of the US in renewable fuel usage. Most of our ethanol is corn based for technical and political reasons, and corn is a worse feedstock because it's more difficult for yeast to metabolize and it requires more fertilizer. So it's not nearly as economical here. And you are right, fertilizer is the non-renewable input. Most of the N (nitrogen) in NPK (nitrogen/phosphorus/potassium) is ammonia or urea derived from natural gas via something called the Haber Process.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#247

Post by finnw »

onemoreact wrote: post #200
rbanffy wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biofuels are definitely not in their infancy. My first car ran on ethanol and it was in the mid 80's. The technology in very mature.

It's the fuels that are in their infancy not the car's. Design a cheap energy efficient way to to turn cellulose into something close to gasoline and you will be able to make more money than Bill Gates. Theoretically it's possible, but nobody has gotten there yet.

> Design a cheap energy efficient way to to turn cellulose into something close to gasoline

The closest match is probably thermal depolymerization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization)

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#248

Post by Domenic_S »

Tossrock wrote: post #231
rdl wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Based on time in a Roadster, and what I've seen of the model s, I would be totally happy with the S in the bay area, and either rent or keep a second car for trips out of the bay. With a constant level of tech, sure, the city car makes more sense, but assuming you can afford the high tech batteries, the tesla seems like a great car for how Americans use cars. If I weren't getting a model s, I'd probably g…

Carpool lanes are two people in the Bay Area. Did you mean you had zero rather than one companions, or were you unaware of the law?

Huge swaths of 80 and 880 are three-person HOV lanes. Take a look at the interactive map here: http://rideshare.511.org/

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#249

Post by cobrausn »

rwallace wrote: post #238
schiffern wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately people aren't very inclined to ride velomobiles on the same roads as Hummers and Escalades.

Which makes it all the more important to find a way to get the Hummers and Escalades off the bloody roads.

Then the same roads as 18-wheelers and buses. Good luck getting those off the bloody roads.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#250

Post by functionform »

SeanLuke wrote: post #106
jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

> Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Completely disagree. Tesla is, I think, unquestionably the most impactful company in the game, including GE and Nissan. For two reasons. First, before Tesla people thought of electric vehicles as ridiculous DIY golf carts driven by treehuggers. They were utterly uncool and stupid. P…

Potentially losing the car after a week of NOT using it qualifies as devastating to me.
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