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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#241

Post by alphabettsy »

pnutjam wrote: post #167
taude wrote: post #72

I was talking to a black woman friend about DEI recently. As a white man, I can't really share any of our discussions. But we both agree'd the whole thing does more damage than benefit to an org, especially the people, etc. My friend also added the slant of her escape from generational poverty, and the decisions she made in her life that her siblings, didn't. I wish she could come into companies and have an honest co…

Another angle, are you certain this person was comfortable having a real conversation with you? PoC are very accustomed to bending with the wind and playing their cards close to their chest. I know it's only caused me grief to speak out.

[flagged]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#242

Post by spoiler »

catiopatio wrote: post #139
shadowgovt wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The old saying was "The beauty of the Internet is nobody knows if you're a dog." ... except they didn't mean dog, and we never said why it might matter what you are or what other people were assuming you were absent further information.

No, we literally meant dog. It was a joke. Why might it matter? Because the rest of the world was a lot more racist and sexist, but IRC wasn’t.

No, no. You need other people to tell you what you meant. It's how things work now. Don't you dare think otherwise!

And now we're doing this whole "guilty of X by technology choice".

/s

Where and when does this this neurosis stop?

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#243

Post by dbrueck »

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

Not disputing your bad experiences, but do you know how virulent some of those communities were to just about everyone? :)

Speaking of 2 things being true at once, what's amazing about BBSs/USENET/IRC/etc. especially in the early years was that they had:

- online discussions where a lot of things just didn't matter. Race, gender, etc. just didn't matter. You got judged on the merit of your ideas, not what you looked like, not what you sounded like. It wasn't white people and black people talking together. It was just people. Genuine friendships developed between people that otherwise probably would have never connected because of societal barriers.

- online discussions where people were insanely cruel. Prior to getting online, I thought I understood how mean people could be. Boy was I wrong. It was a real learning experience to be on the receiving end of vile hatred, bigotry, insults, just... meanness. There are interests I walked away from because the toxicity of the community was too much to deal with.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#244

Post by BeFlatXIII »

bradlys wrote: post #187
backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

We’ve hired people at my jobs (big tech to startups in SV) that were underqualified because of diversity measures. If we had ran them through the typical interview gauntlet with the same rubric, they wouldn’t pass. We often changed the interview format or the rubric when presented with someone who was URT pool. I’ve talked to enough managers who complain about lackluster employees and how they’re not fireable because…

Find the legal definition of hostile workplace and skate just below that until the problems find solutions on someone else’s paycheck.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#245

Post by oh_sigh »

version_five wrote: post #97
NickC25 wrote: post #33

> but creating townhall meetings and parading your black/brown employees around like show ponies is nothing short of corporate virtue signaling. It doesn't just undermine the self-esteem of a PoC, it undermines the self-esteem of white folks, too. Hiring or promoting people due to their skin color is just wrong, no matter what skin color that is. As a white dude, seeing my PoC teammates in the past celebrated not for…

> PoC > White folks I just want to mention that one of the worst aspects of all this is trying to sort people according to (here apparently a binary) label. There is not really such thing as either of these categories - it's stereotyping of the worst kind, and takes us back many generations

It gets even worse, where people are pushing for BIPoC instead of just people of color, indicating that black and indigenous are of primary import, and the rest of the non whites are relegated to "other people of color"

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#246

Post by pjkundert »

stcroixx wrote: post #140

Unequal treatment based on skin color harms all of us.

And DEI programs are the most pernicious form of racism existing today.

Nothing is worse than a group who believes they are harassing/oppressing you for your own good.

There is no true diversity in human affairs apart from intellectual diversity.

And if you look at the most DEI-compliant places — they are desserts of intellectual diversity.

Nobody interesting would want to work/study there.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#247

Post by tomrod »

I see you and what you're saying. I always feel a bit awkward in these conversations because I feel I have received a lot of help in life and also am a complete dunce when it comes to race/gender and DEI discussions as a cis white male. So... if I haven't shot my own foot off yet, take my thoughts with a grain of salt and feel free to hit me with some better ways to see things if I'm dumb/ignorant?

From my perspective, _everyone_ stands on the shoulders of other folks. Not one single person built what they have, know, and can do in a silo. I'm convinced that anyone that claims otherwise lacks introspection.

I see the concern around thinking "I couldn't have done XYZ without help of others" and feeling patronized and concerned that you are unable to have accomplished the same under a counterfactual world without help. I feel this assessment misses that everyone else would have had "help" of similar variety as well to accomplish XYZ.

And yes, townhalls parading around folks as tokens is abysmal. My undergraduate school, a notoriously bad-at-race-relations school, had a Multiculutral office from which the same 15 people were requested for dozens of brochures produced each year. In my mind, these are the same things and my friends doing the brochures didn't like being token folks. Doing so undermines the confidence of the people being paraded.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#248

Post by Zvez »

I knew a _very_ talented female software developer. And she was radically against any benefits based on her being female. For example she actively tried to avoid female discounts some conferences offered.

It seems that people who drive DEI don't have real connection with people they are trying to 'protect'.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#249

Post by hedora »

Firmwarrior wrote: post #107
xwowsersx wrote: post #39

Interestingly enough, Pew Research ran a study[0] a few years back which found that the majority of whites, blacks, and Hispanics reject race-conscious hiring—even if it results in less diversity. I can only imagine what it would feel like to be a PoC in a company that has openly stated that their goal is to achieve a certain racial/ethnic composition regardless of standards. How would I not always have a sneaking su…

As a Hispanic man, I can say that I don't care about whether I earned my spot or lucked into it through my ancestry. Life isn't fair, and I'll gladly take whatever advantages I can scrounge up. The software interview process in particular is already so capricious that I feel absolutely no shame in tilting it in my favor in any way that I can.

The concern is that there are places where minority hires are explicitly a lower bar, so those people get junk jobs and layoffs, regardless of ability.

Personally, I think the problem should be pushed upstream whenever possible. (More funding for minority elementary and high schools, and candidate quotas for recruiters but not hires both are good examples of effective approaches).

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#250

Post by busterarm »

voxic11 wrote: post #200
backzerman wrote: post #129

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that DEI initiatives are about actively hiring under-qualified under-represented candidates to change the demographics of the company. I've sat through a lot of DEI sessions at work (as have many of my friends), and I've yet to hear of anyone actually _hiring_ under-qualified candidates for the sake of a quota. The DEI sessions I've sat through have focused heavily on the I--inclusion.…

Well hiring under-qualified candidates purely for the sake of a quota (relating to a protected class) would be illegal in the United States. So its unlikely you will hear anyone explicitly saying that is what they intend to do. https://www.aclusocal.org/en/inclusion-targets-whats-legal

We opened a director level technology position, were encouraged to apply and then we were told explicitly at a company meeting that it was only open to a female PoC (which could only possibly be filled by an outside hire based no our org chart).
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