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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#161

Post by frozenchrome »

xienze wrote: post #43
_fat_santa wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever my company has had conversations about DEI initiatives, I always come back to the same argument: "talk is cheap, we can talk all day long about how we are diverse. How about we shut up, put our money where our mouth is, and actually hire some folks from diverse backgrounds". DEI is something that is easy to talk about but actually kinda hard to implement. Part of the problem is the makeup of the industry in…

> actually hire some folks from diverse backgrounds Because you’re trying to hire from a small pool of candidates (minority software developer or whatever) that EVERY OTHER tech company is trying to get in a desperate attempt to not look bad (because not having a sufficient number of minorities on staff is a sin). It’s simply a question of numbers. There’s only so many minorities, and only a fraction of them are suff…

Locally the pool of candidates might seem small. Globally it is much larger than one thinks or realizes.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#162

Post by Scubabear68 »

I’m a tall white middle aged dude living in the US, so I am probably not the best person to comment. But to me DEI is mostly window dressing.

I agree with OP that companies should have policies around this, but they should be aimed at being quietly effective, not something to trumpet in the quarterly corporate report.

And emphasis on “effective”.

If we fold in environment and governance, I see too many companies doing things like planting a zillion trees to show their environmental savvy - which in reality are unfortunately, saplings which are eaten by deer within a few months and end up being a net loss to the environment.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#163

Post by hedgehog »

monero-xmr wrote: post #25

It boils down to a core philosophical difference - do you want to emphasize equal access to opportunity, or do you want to emphasize equal outcomes? Some would argue it isn't an either-or thing, and we can do both at once, but I argue mandated equality of outcomes is insidious and causes social strife. If you are a minority and get hired, and the company has an explicit policy of hiring N% of minorities, then you wil…

What does equal access mean? If I go to an all purple school, and focus my sourcing fro new hires on my school, then my company will by construction be more purple than the overall population without any explicit discriminatory treatment after that. If I broaden my sourcing is that discriminating against minorities? If I know that school B does a better job of interview prep than school A should I take that into account? Am I hiring for SAT scores or predicted performance on the job? It's much messier than just "equal access or equal outcome" because access and outcomes are continuous processes.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#164

Post by benj111 »

>corporate virtue signaling

See, you do get it. Although TBF the 'progressive' left is basically nothing but virtue signalling at the moment.

And you highlight the problem with putting 'diversity' front and centre. It disadvantages me if I don't get the job and end up annoyed at you, legitimately or not because you got the job. Your achievements are devalued because you don't know whether you got the job because of the colour of your skin, and neither do your work colleagues.

Employers shouldn't care about the colour of your skin any further than potentially examining why they aren't attracting certain groups in the interest of getting the very best talent available.

Equality should be the goal.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#165

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

jaltekruse wrote: post #103
spangry wrote: post #21

> If I were a white man with the same experience, I might not even be here? I can understand how DEI initiatives might undermine your self-esteem and I'm sorry you are made to feel this way, but take solace in the fact that you have a job. Imagine how the white guy who was excluded from employment because of his skin color feels. That's who the real victim is here - the person who was racially discriminated against.…

Is the top comment on this thread seriously a reverse racism rant? You are right about something, affirmative action is racist, but I feel it is absolutely necessary to try to balance out current inequities. I strongly believe people making arguments like yours, people fighting against affirmative action need to propose an alternative rather than just complain about it. There are lots of people alive today that could…

This is the general course of any thread concerning DEI on HN. It's filled with concerns about reverse-racism, and how "skin color shouldn't matter" and whatnot. The history behind why such initiatives exist is intentionally ignored.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#166

Post by azangru »

ejstronge wrote: post #113
azangru wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please take a moment and reflect on why these sorts of initiatives exist. These sorts of initiatives are trying to cure a racial or sexual bias with a different sort of racial or sexual bias. How does the question "why they exist" help those of us who think, in Kant's deontological terms, that racial or sexual biases are wrong?

Very respectfully, I do not read Kant - and I wish I had the opportunity to do so in the very poor high school I attended. Please consider an old house you may buy if you live in New England or Europe. Sure, if you were building a new house everything should be plumb and level. But the house you’re able to buy in old cities is not brand new. So what does one do if you wish to have a level floor? We add shims to obtai…

> So what does one do if you wish to have a level floor?

Let me offer you a different metaphor about levels :-) In Greek mythology, there was a character named Procrustes. He had an iron bed of a certain size, to which he strapped his captives, and if they happened to be taller than the bed was long, he cut off their legs to fit the bed; whereas if they were shorter, he stretched them to fit the bed tearing their sinews and muscles. That's what I think of when I hear about arbitrary levels applied to living people.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#167

Post by pnutjam »

taude wrote: post #72

I was talking to a black woman friend about DEI recently. As a white man, I can't really share any of our discussions. But we both agree'd the whole thing does more damage than benefit to an org, especially the people, etc. My friend also added the slant of her escape from generational poverty, and the decisions she made in her life that her siblings, didn't. I wish she could come into companies and have an honest co…

Another angle, are you certain this person was comfortable having a real conversation with you? PoC are very accustomed to bending with the wind and playing their cards close to their chest. I know it's only caused me grief to speak out.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#168

Post by itronitron »

When I was in graduate school, we had a guest speaker who was a diversity consultant come give a talk and ran us through one of the example exercises they do for clients. It basically involves everyone standing in a conference room, on one side of a line, and the diversity consultant standing on the other side. They iteratively make statements relating to personal attributes or experiences and anyone that chooses to identify with that statement step over the line briefly before returning back to the group (either before the next statement or not).

For example, the first statement might be "I have served in the military" and veterans that don't mind being known for their military experience can step over the line. Other statements might be "I am the first person in my family to attend college", "I have questioned my sexuality", "I was raised in an upper class family", "I am vegetarian", "I am a recovering addict", ... etc.

It's a good exercise for showing both the things people have in common as well as the breadth of experiences that might exist in a group.

Interestingly, though I've never seen that exercise performed in an actual company in the twenty years since...

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#169

Post by hedora »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #78
monero-xmr wrote: post #25

It boils down to a core philosophical difference - do you want to emphasize equal access to opportunity, or do you want to emphasize equal outcomes? Some would argue it isn't an either-or thing, and we can do both at once, but I argue mandated equality of outcomes is insidious and causes social strife. If you are a minority and get hired, and the company has an explicit policy of hiring N% of minorities, then you wil…

On the other hand, if you only emphasize equal access of opportunity you will never reach equal outcomes. White men have centuries of cultural expectations, family wealth, and other advantages, and minorities have none of those advantages, and may be only a few decades (if that) removed from illiterate, impoverished inequality. Give those groups equal opportunity and it's unsurprising when an inequality of outcomes i…

Can you name a single place which has equality of opportunity and where black people were somehow still unable to prosper?

In California, the equality of outcome groups in Sacramento are trying to lower the educational bar to the federally mandated minimum. The result is that most people reading this with kids in California will use their wealth to supplement public education (or pay for private schools), while people in poorer districts won’t have that option. They already defunded science and art, state wide, and the equity brigade tried to defund high school calculus last year.

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