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The Agony of Eros: Dating

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Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#241

Post by smeej »

benrapscallion wrote: post #73
fxtentacle wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow TIL. But yeah, that intuitively makes sense. "Factorial ANOVA results showed that the group of nonpill users obtained higher scores on the PMI scale than the group of pill users (considering the fertile phase of the cycle)." where PMI = Partner's Masculinity Index https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S17436... In short, pill birth control reduced the desirability of features considered traditiona…

You TIL’d a lot of incorrect information. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ

I can't follow what point you're trying to make here.

Is is that one possible way people have proposed that humans might react to pheromones probably only exists vestigially in humans?

Or by introducing us to the name of this organ, are you somehow under the impression you've debunked the idea that pheromones have any impact on human behavior at all?

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#242

Post by jawarner »

bradlys wrote: post #208

This article speaks a lot from a position of privilege and mostly from a straight woman’s view. The aspect of dating a lot in their 20’s is something most relegated to the most attractive men and most women these days. If you want to have stable relationships - you need to commit to people who are actually interested in you. The reason many women have these bad experiences with men is because they’re all dating the s…

> The 4x self-inflicted death rate compared to women should be evidence enough.

This seems like a manipulative use of mental health statistics. Need I remind you that women attempt suicide at a much greater rate than men? Regardless everyone is responsible for their own emotional well-being at the end of the day. It's not right to blame women for male loneliness. After all, I can just as easily flip the script. If your claim is that heterosexual men are miserable due to a lack of dating prospects, then there are an equal number of frustrating heterosexual women unable to find a good relationship. Don't they also feel loneliness? The truth is that dating is hard, and it can be painful for everyone, men and women. Women also encounter a unique set of problems when it comes to dating, e.g., violence, that is experienced less by men.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#243

Post by lolc »

mikevm wrote: post #126
lolc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, not all people look at their relationship in that specific "work for sex" way. Read up on "invisible labor" if you want to understand why women in particular could get offended by your perspective. If you're looking for such a relationship, I'm sure you'll find a mate on those terms. But don't claim that this is the only way. And please accept that other people may prefer other setups.

> Eh, not all people look at their relationship in that specific "work for sex" way. I'm not talking just about relationships, I'm talking about the asymmetric access men and women have to sex. This is an undeniable fact of life. If a man wants to get laid tonight, he will have to work hard, and his chances are not that high. That's why ~80% of the prostitutes are women... most women just don't need to pay for sex.

Relax, it's just culture. People who have open relationships tend not to talk about it. Some because they don't like getting lectured on cultural inventions like monogamy. Others because they don't want to get advances from sex-mercenaries.

So you may just not know what your friends are up to, because why would they tell you of all people? If you allowed a bit of nuance, you could learn surprising things about humans.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#244

Post by bradlys »

jawarner wrote: post #242
bradlys wrote: post #208

This article speaks a lot from a position of privilege and mostly from a straight woman’s view. The aspect of dating a lot in their 20’s is something most relegated to the most attractive men and most women these days. If you want to have stable relationships - you need to commit to people who are actually interested in you. The reason many women have these bad experiences with men is because they’re all dating the s…

> The 4x self-inflicted death rate compared to women should be evidence enough. This seems like a manipulative use of mental health statistics. Need I remind you that women attempt suicide at a much greater rate than men? Regardless everyone is responsible for their own emotional well-being at the end of the day. It's not right to blame women for male loneliness. After all, I can just as easily flip the script. If yo…

Women attempt at a higher rate because they're often not looking to actually die - they're making a plea for help. Men don't attempt like that because no one is going to come knocking or respond to a plea for help - they just end it.

The thinking of 1:1 is where you go wrong. First off - more men exist below 40 than women. Men are born at 105-107:100 ratio, NATURALLY. If it was equal - why are the stats on male sex so much more grim than for women? Oh, that's right - because again - multiple women are sharing one man. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-ame...

I really wish we'd get away from this narrative that violence or abuse is only something that women encounter in relationships. Figured the Depp vs Heard trial would make that more obvious to everyday people out here but guess not. I know many men who were abused by women - it is not often reported or talked about because it is - again - incredibly shameful to a degree that makes other people question the survivors "manliness" and worthiness of being a "man". It's also not taken seriously at all. I still think women suffer more often at physical abuse but mental abuse - idk - not clear on that one.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#245

Post by jawarner »

bradlys wrote: post #244
jawarner wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 4x self-inflicted death rate compared to women should be evidence enough. This seems like a manipulative use of mental health statistics. Need I remind you that women attempt suicide at a much greater rate than men? Regardless everyone is responsible for their own emotional well-being at the end of the day. It's not right to blame women for male loneliness. After all, I can just as easily flip the script. If yo…

Women attempt at a higher rate because they're often not looking to actually die - they're making a plea for help. Men don't attempt like that because no one is going to come knocking or respond to a plea for help - they just end it. The thinking of 1:1 is where you go wrong. First off - more men exist below 40 than women . Men are born at 105-107:100 ratio, NATURALLY. If it was equal - why are the stats on male sex…

You’re not really responding to my points. You’re trying to enforce a sense of male victim hood that isn’t supported by the evidence you’re presenting.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#246

Post by astrange »

Mezzie wrote: post #201
astrange wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go to bars. They're full of young people looking for love. Surprisingly this may still be true (I thought people didn't drink as much these days) but it's significantly less common than apps for couples now. https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1908630116 Also not very popular for lesbians. https://www.graphext.com/post/how-couples-meet-and-stay-toge...

I'm a lesbian who despises dating online. I've just accepted I'm going to be single.

I heard you're supposed to meet someone in a bookstore then get married on the second date.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#247

Post by nl »

bradlys wrote: post #208

This article speaks a lot from a position of privilege and mostly from a straight woman’s view. The aspect of dating a lot in their 20’s is something most relegated to the most attractive men and most women these days. If you want to have stable relationships - you need to commit to people who are actually interested in you. The reason many women have these bad experiences with men is because they’re all dating the s…

> most men are just not having sex in their 20s anymore

This is misleading and seems to be trying to paint a picture of male victimhood that just isn't statistically supported.

It's true that in the US people (both male and female) are having sex now than in the 1990s:

> Between 2009 and 2018, the proportion of adolescents reporting no sexual activity, either alone or with partners, rose from 28.8 percent to 44.2 percent among young men and from 49.5 percent in 2009 to 74 percent among young women.[1]

It's worth noting that less women than men are having sex, and the decline amongst women has been greater than amoung men.

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-...

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#248

Post by Supermancho »

twic wrote: post #153
cassepipe wrote: post #111

I wish Eva Illouz had less success. She is mostly a philosopher, that is someone who says what's goes through her head, and a not a social scientist. I think her idea of the commoditization of love has a lot of success because it seems obvious to our moral oriented minds but the "commodization of {some aspect of life} in the modern society is a commonplace of lazy social analysis, and she is far from alone doing that…

Sadly, "commoditization" has become a meaningless word thrown around by those who claim intellectual descent from Marx, with a meaning something like "corruption". Marx used the term (well, "commodification") with a very specific sociological and economic meaning, where some object with a natural "use value" (you can wear a coat to keep warm) is assigned a somewhat artificial "exchange value" (you can sell a coat for…

> Sadly, "commoditization" has become a meaningless word

I've never heard this much less entertained the idea, since it makes sense in these contexts. Commoditization still means treating a thing (which can include a relationship) like it has an inherent relative value that can be traded for other things of relative value. Commodity (a raw material that has a market value) + ization (the conversion of).

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#249

Post by Supermancho »

enw wrote: post #60

Hot take: men don’t want promiscuous women as long-term partners, fundamentally people desire long-term partners, and the commoditization of sex contributes to weak relationships and broken families.

> men don’t want promiscuous women as long-term partners

Men don't think in those terms. Promiscuous means quicker (and easier) to filter.

> fundamentally people desire long-term partners

Why? Because 2 people are stronger than one and as you get older, you start to be painfully aware of that. If you can find a best friend who shares your short term goals, long term goals, life standards (like cleanliness, similar views on drug use, gambling, etc) AND is also interested in you sexually, you probably have a good long term partner.

Re: The Agony of Eros: Dating

#250

Post by ZephyrBlu »

nl wrote: post #247
bradlys wrote: post #208

This article speaks a lot from a position of privilege and mostly from a straight woman’s view. The aspect of dating a lot in their 20’s is something most relegated to the most attractive men and most women these days. If you want to have stable relationships - you need to commit to people who are actually interested in you. The reason many women have these bad experiences with men is because they’re all dating the s…

> most men are just not having sex in their 20s anymore This is misleading and seems to be trying to paint a picture of male victimhood that just isn't statistically supported. It's true that in the US people (both male and female) are having sex now than in the 1990s: > Between 2009 and 2018, the proportion of adolescents reporting no sexual activity, either alone or with partners, rose from 28.8 percent to 44.2 per…

I really have to wonder if you googled something and picked the first result without reading it, because your source doesn't refute anything about the GPs statement that "most men are just not having sex in their 20s anymore".

> The researchers obtained the self-reported information from the National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior and used responses from 4,155 people in 2009 and 4,547 people in 2018. These respondents to the confidential survey ranged in age from 14 to 49 years

> ...

> The decline in adolescent masturbation is interesting, and we were the first to include it. That one deserves a lot more attention

1) Includes adolescents and older people

2) Covers "no sexual activity, either alone or with partners" which is far broader than sex

Here is an article with a link to a study that actually provides evidence related to the statement: https://news.iu.edu/stories/2020/06/iub/releases/15-sexual-i...

Study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...

> The study [...] looked at the sexual activity and number of partners of 18- to 44-year-olds in the U.S. from 2000 to 2018.

> During that time, the researchers found that sexual inactivity had increased from 19 percent to 31 percent among men age 18 to 24. Men and women age 25 to 34 also reported an increase in sexual inactivity during the time period. This coincided with decreases in those who had sex at least weekly and in those with one sexual partner over the past year, while the proportion of men and women with two or more partners in the past year had remained largely unchanged.

It was 15% -> 19% for women age 18 to 24 in the same period.

> More men than women reported having no sexual partner (16.4% vs 12.0%; P = .04) and 3 or more partners (14.5% vs 7.1%; P

The study also happens to provide evidence for the GPs argument that young women are "all dating the same guy".

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