How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#241

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

_petronius wrote: post #172

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

As someone who grew up in the US, and works as a software engineer in Europe, I can't understand why anyone would ever choose to work as a developer in America. :) I have a very high quality of life here, strong protections as a permanent employee (increasingly less common in other industries in Germany, but not in tech!), a salary that is excellent compared to many of my peers, and comes with a purchasing power that…

I'd rather have free time and enjoy a modest life than have little time and have all the money in the world but can buy anything I want.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#242

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

DavidVoid wrote: post #224

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

Compared to most jobs, developers are still pretty valued. I'm a junior software engineer in Sweden with an MSE degree. My entry salary was a bit lower than average for this industry at $50,000/year ($3000/month after taxes), but that's still higher than what 95% of nurses make in this country.

Many nurses in my state (Wisconsin) make more than you.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#243

Post by light_hue_1 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #195

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

Well, seniors can make like 70-80k€ where I live, which is like the 3rd percentile in my country. Still true though, the salaries are not great compared to the US. Is Canada that much better though? I briefly considered it but I determined that the high rents and not so high wages would not be worth it for a move.

The situation in Canada changed a lot in the past 2-3 years. It used to be that hearing about people making 200k mid-career in Canada was rare, now it's becoming more common. You're still taking a ~25% pay cut compared to the US. It really depends though, if you work for a large US company in Canada you are far better off than working for a Canadian company.

> Well, seniors can make like 70-80k€ where I live, which is like the 3rd percentile in my country. Still true though, the salaries are not great compared to the US.

That also means you have no room for growth. In the US 200k/year would put you in the 10th percentile for household income. You have plenty of room to build up from there. The thing about the EU is that not only are salaries low, the ceiling is also low.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#244

Post by disabled » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:01 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #131

lbrito wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

1- By living with roommates and renting a room (sometimes half a room). 2- By taking painfully long commutes to cheaper locations. 3- By living with parents/partner. This is not an option for most people, but probably what makes moving to a job a difficult situation. > what kind of people are able to afford a house? Apparently, half of Germany can't afford a home. - https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-own…

Yeah, but you can expect that your pension can pay for apartment rent and other costs of living, indefinitely.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#245

Post by jhirshman » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

We (Uncountable) opened up a Munich office in 2018 and have been building an engineering team there after having personnel only in SF.

Our experience was that there is a big pool of talent in both Munich and Berlin, but the number of high-tech startup jobs is much less than you would find in the U.S. coastal corridors.

The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN.

More Info: I recorded a podcast about our experience with the Bavarian U.S. development organization: https://bavarianusoffices.libsyn.com/accelerating-rd-with-un... We're hiring in Munich: https://www.uncountable.com/careers

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#246

Post by fock » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

hobofan wrote: post #130

sdevonoes wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's do some simple (and probably wrong, but hey) maths: - House price: 450K euro - In Europe you usually need around 30% of the house in cash (20% for down payment and 10% for paperwork and the like). This means you need 135K euro saved. Saving 18K euro/year => you need to save money for 7 years - Now you get a mortage for the 70% of the 450K euro (315K euro). Now depending on how much you want to pay every month,…

> top 10% tier in the society (in terms of gross income) According to this statistic[0], that should be 39.1% (numbers are for net income, but top two brackets should fit 60k gross income). In a household with two working people that both have semi-decent jobs you'll have that (and with tech job + basically any other job, you'll beat that). > Let's say you are at this moment 25 years old, so you'll get your house pai…

my grandparents both were classical workers (so apprenticeship for men, nothing for women) and bought their houses, paid off 'til their 50ies (middle income bracket I guess). My parents were academics (probably upper third income bracket), paid off their house 'til their 50ies (my mother converted to housewife after buying the house!). Now, if I were to buy the house my parents live in, I'd have to pay around ~1.5M€ I guess. Not sure how I should do that (with a partner and kids) 'til 50, even being a tad higher in income than my parents.

That being said: after the war, housing was destroyed and had to be rebuilt, nowadays it's there already (and more than enough if I look at my family and others around us). The only problem is that now one doesn't need the lower third of incomes to build it and so it has become a playground for financialization games which basically make sure that wealth will steadily be reallocated one family with too many kids at a time...

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#247

Post by z3ncyberpunk » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #219

codr7 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider moving to Munich just to have this place around the corner, simply awesome: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g187309-d12010...

Salads? What’s so special?

Nothing at all.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#248

Post by kalnins » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

namelosw wrote: post #77

lbrito wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

It's one of the outstanding problems of the current world. Not only in Germany, but there are also even crazier countries that most people can't afford to buy a small apartment their whole life. Old houses belong to older generations, and new houses are bought by rich people. Young people don't stand a chance, for some cities even not with a lifelong mortgage - unless they live in countries like Singapore which expli…

How did Singapore tackle it?

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#249

Post by IdiocyInAction » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #243

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, seniors can make like 70-80k€ where I live, which is like the 3rd percentile in my country. Still true though, the salaries are not great compared to the US. Is Canada that much better though? I briefly considered it but I determined that the high rents and not so high wages would not be worth it for a move.

The situation in Canada changed a lot in the past 2-3 years. It used to be that hearing about people making 200k mid-career in Canada was rare, now it's becoming more common. You're still taking a ~25% pay cut compared to the US. It really depends though, if you work for a large US company in Canada you are far better off than working for a Canadian company. > Well, seniors can make like 70-80k€ where I live, which i…

Maybe I'll consider Canada then. I have a bunch of relatives there and immigration would be relatively easy (especially compared to the US).

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#250

Post by IdiocyInAction » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

jhirshman wrote: post #245

We (Uncountable) opened up a Munich office in 2018 and have been building an engineering team there after having personnel only in SF. Our experience was that there is a big pool of talent in both Munich and Berlin, but the number of high-tech startup jobs is much less than you would find in the U.S. coastal corridors. The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candid…

> The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN.

What exactly makes it less efficient? Lack of networks?