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How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

germantechjobs.de

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Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#71

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

carlmr wrote: post #33
dcolkitt wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less. It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical therapists, etc. make? I understand the demand side. I think the European tech industry is much less successful than its American counterpart, and therefore has less money to pay. But I don'…

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly: * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay) * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old con…

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany.

exactly. I made that as a Junior in my first full-time job in Munich in 2000 already. Then moved on to freelancing and for the next decade never invoiced less than EUR 12K/month (average was actually EUR ~16K). I did a lot of hours and paid a lot of tax but it also got me fast cars, holidays in Italy, Austria or Switzerland (just for the weekends) and a nanny to help look after my kids. And I wasn't even an outlier since anyone who I worked with (often via places like Hays or Allgeier Group etc) was on pretty much the same.

What I've noticed in the recent years (I moved around 2009) is there has been a push to "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung", which is basically a racket where the outsourcing agency hires you out to their clients, they skim the margins and leave the employees with a crap salary. They sit in their clients office and are second class employees. When the project ends they're moved on to the next company if they're lucky or are asked to come in to the office (not on the client site but the place where they organize this type of slavery), then they get to call prospective clients and beg for jobs that they themselves have to do. It's surreal and idiotic but it's peoples fault for putting up with it instead of just freelancing and writing their own invoices.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#72

Post by archi42 »

estaseuropano wrote: post #41
lbrito wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

Price/sq meter varies between 100-2000€, so it really depends on your region, lifestyle and choices. If you have a normal salary (or both working) you can afford a small house. Mortgages also tend to be reasonable in Germany.

I think the 100 is a typo? :P [as in "... varies between 100-2000€..."]

I'm currently looking for a house in SW Germany, near the french border. I'd be happy if prices would max out at 2000€/m². I can not renovate a full building (both time and skill-wise), so - including necessary improvements - houses we're looking at start at about 1800€/m² and surpass 2200€/m². And we're not talking about "center of town" here or even "built after 1990". More like "neighboring municipality" or "no way I move so close to the Autobahn Zubringer". Obviously Munich or Berlin are much more expensive, and "middle of nowhere" (like in "also no or little tech jobs") is cheaper.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#73

Post by sdevonoes »

gigatexal wrote: post #2

What I did: Check who’s hiring in X on HN. Apply. Realize the company is located in Hamburg, Germany. Get hired. Move. Enjoy life in a stable, wealthy, European country.

I'm also enjoying life in a stable, wealthy, European country. It just came to my mind, recently, that affording a decent house (not flat) in this idealized European country of mine is still quite hard as long as one is an employee. Comfortable life starts when one works for himself (not freelancer, but owning a small company).

Except unless you plan to buy a house in a town in the middle of nowhere, of course! Those are quite cheap.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#74

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

sdevonoes wrote: post #70
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but exception that some good companies offer. 25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions on the market now.

While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).

Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria).

Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where to move next.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#75

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

jamil7 wrote: post #43
carlmr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is roughly: * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay) * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in old con…

> I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer. You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

> but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.

like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was like and the expenses you had.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#76

Post by dagw »

dcolkitt wrote: post #67
estaseuropano wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual free weekends, many free public services, affordable healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany - 0€. If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with…

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields. Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions…

Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent.

Most numbers I can find via quick googling seems to put the median annual salary for a SWE in the US at around €75-78k and €55k in Germany. That is pretty close to the 25% number you quoted.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#77

Post by namelosw »

lbrito wrote: post #14
sdevonoes wrote: post #8

> To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed). > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the majority of your salary. I know it…

I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary distribution. If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.

It's one of the outstanding problems of the current world. Not only in Germany, but there are also even crazier countries that most people can't afford to buy a small apartment their whole life.

Old houses belong to older generations, and new houses are bought by rich people. Young people don't stand a chance, for some cities even not with a lifelong mortgage - unless they live in countries like Singapore which explicitly tackled this problem.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#78

Post by grw_ »

sneak wrote: post #29
querez wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make a very decent living on an SWE salary in Germany, and still get to live in a social democracy with a stronger emphasis on "social" than the US (i.e., very solid public services like transportation, education or health care) with a work/life balance that's more strongly tilted in favor of "life" than the US, from what I understand. It's a trade-off, but it's worth it for many.

You'd have to tilt a lot more than what Germany does to make it worth it; equivalent healthcare in the US is only €15k in additional costs. (The messy healthcare situation the US is famous for only really affects the poor.)

It only _directly_ affects the poor- regardless of whether I as can afford these things, it benefits me to live in a society where everyone (including "the poor") is educated to a high standard, is not living in fear of financial distress due to minor illness, and is able to pursue their vocations out of choice rather than necessity

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#79

Post by gigatexal »

sdevonoes wrote: post #73
gigatexal wrote: post #2

What I did: Check who’s hiring in X on HN. Apply. Realize the company is located in Hamburg, Germany. Get hired. Move. Enjoy life in a stable, wealthy, European country.

I'm also enjoying life in a stable, wealthy, European country. It just came to my mind, recently, that affording a decent house (not flat) in this idealized European country of mine is still quite hard as long as one is an employee. Comfortable life starts when one works for himself (not freelancer, but owning a small company). Except unless you plan to buy a house in a town in the middle of nowhere, of course! Those…

I thought US house prices were insane until I saw what houses are going for here. It’s crazy. But we have consigned ourselves to apartment/rental living for our stay here. In fact we love our apartment so much here in Wilmersdorf so much that we’d love to buy it but the going rate for such a place (85 sq meters, 3 rooms, 2 baths) is >500k euros and only rising.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#80

Post by sdevonoes »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #74
sdevonoes wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).

Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria). Maybe you can show me where I…

Sorry, I don't know about Austria. But at least in my experience in Germany, France, and the Netherlands I always got around 28-30 days of vacation per year.

Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself, but in my experience is something you decide to do it or not. If you do it companies pay for overtime. I never done overtime (because companies pay pennies for it :) )

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