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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#241

Post by didibus »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #141
didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

People aren't idiots. If you're just replacing "you're wrong" with doublespeak people are gonna figure it out real quick. There is no substitute for engaging in Quality(TM) communication with people even if the end result is disagreement.

I agree, quality communication starts by recognizing the other person's ideas and considering them first before you shut them down. Saying "you're wrong" as the first thing after they've told you what they thought is pretty dismissive, especially if they feel confident or have put effort into their thoughts.

So to me, that's the reason for change in language. First I want to express that I'm listening to what you said, I'm considering it, and I think it's really good, but there are certain aspects that I'm unsure about, and now I'd like them to consider those.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#242

Post by didibus »

throwaway316943 wrote: post #129
didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

Those are both pretty condescending. Convincing someone is the same as correcting a math problem, work through the chain of reasoning until you find the error. The problem is you need to establish trust and good will to do this. Building rapport first and agreeing that you will both act in good faith before going through the reasoning. Just saying “you’re right” and “that’s great” are pretty weak attempts and will be…

Out of context they might appear condescending. The reason I have more than one is different ones are appropriate in different contexts.

Basically, "you're wrong" is dismissive of the other person's intelligence. That's why I want to avoid it.

So when someone is saying something I mostly agree with, but I just want to expand on it, instead of saying "but" or "not quite" or "that's not it", I will say "yes, and". Because I recon that's very much what I think as well with just a few minor additions.

If someone has an idea and I think there are better ideas, I won't say, "that's dumb", or "no", I will say, "oh that's a good idea, can I propose one too?" Because that's what I want to express, like good job with that idea, nothing against it except I'd like us to consider if this other one might be better, which it might not be.

Etc.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#243

Post by AnimalMuppet »

taurath wrote: post #228
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

Again, you shouldn't feel guilt for yourself, but you should feel guilt for your ancestors. Not self-flagellation. And you should attempt some penance if you are able - sometimes that just involves welcoming people into spaces with you. What is not tolerable to me is to pretend you are not, at least in part, a result of a long string of advantages. That your relative power comes with responsibility. And to not put yo…

My ancestor died in the Civil War, on the Northern side. Other of my ancestors moved from nice safe Lawrence, Massachusetts, to Lawrence, Kansas, at a time when it was "Bleeding Kansas", to try to keep it non-slave.

Explain to me again why I should feel guilt for my ancestors?

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#244

Post by jpindar »

lm2s wrote: post #118
didibus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". Another good one I'm trying recently is: "You're right to think that given the information you know, and here's some more information you should consider." Oh and: "That's a great hypothesis, here's another one."

I prefer "Hmm I don't think that's correct" and go on as to why. To me it feels less like an attack.

I've sometimes told people their idea was non-optimal.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#245

Post by Xc43 »

Life is unfair & no one wants to feel bad.

I am not white nor black.

I have been innsulted by social justice individuals for defending my friend who was being insulted by them.

Whether right or wrong, insults are not the way to cooperation. Everyone is challenged differently and some less than others. What matters is not my prestige or wealth compared to another, what matters is that I am content and live with dignity. I will never be treated as another nor do I want to, I am me. I have dignity and although I am not fully content of my situation, I am joyful because I have faith what I am doing is right and will lead to contentment.

The problem is an identity centered around attributes. The solution is an identity centered around objectives.

Color is minor. Respectfulness is not. For being treated without respect by SJWs I now avoid them. I have dignity as they do. I will not tolerate being mistreated.

Stupid is the idea that attributes physical or spiritual as sufficient to determine your tribe. Goals are better. People change, spiritually and physically.

Goals are ideas in action. If I had to write a hierarchy of identity defining objects I would go with: 0) Goals (what I want) 1) Spirit (what I think) 2) Body (how I look)

As far as I understand, it is already like that. Looks trickle from ideas which trickles from goals.

That is why a common enemy is a cause for union. i.e. a common goal. This is why the race to the moon united americans (common goal, again).

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#246

Post by adnzzzzZ »

TeaDrunk wrote: post #213
adnzzzzZ wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People's actions are rarely with real justice or malice in intention. Most of the time it is nuances of grey, thoughtlessly. My point is that thoughtlessness is by definition evil and that working under that assumption is better than not. You disagree and that's fine. We won't really reach an agreement over this by arguing I don't think.

You haven't addressed the thing I'm confused about. I can do things thoughtlessly and people thank me for being helpful. This goes against your statement that goodness cannot happen without just intent.

Righteous action requires rightful intent because it always requires effort. Thoughtless action doesn't and is also subject to the whims of the environment. In your examples, your "good" actions are nice, small things that required nothing out of you, they just required you to act like how the environment (other people) expects you to act. The more you increase the effort necessary to carry out a "good" action, the more conscious effort will be necessary, and the more the phrases I mentioned will become true.

Additionally, as I mentioned, thoughtless action is subject to the changing environment. What is considered good now is different from what was considered good 100 years ago and what will consider good 100 years from now. If your actions are thoughtless you are simply a product of your environment, no matter how warped and disgusting it may be.

If your environment rewards small good actions, you're not actually acting righteously, because you're just reproducing what's expect by your environment. When the environment turns sour and what's considered good starts becoming more and more warped, you will not have the will to resist it because your actions are thoughtless and not righteous. You will fall into evil, like everyone else, swept moment by moment, without caring about what you're doing as long as the environment responds well.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#247

Post by renewiltord »

learnstats2 wrote: post #138
renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

I find it informative that you want to fuck "him" over with intentional planning for the continued oppression of women.

Not a native speaker. Pronoun use was intended to represent neuter/indeterminate gender. Would alter to 'them' if this interpretation had high priors. Unfortunately this forum software does not permit edits past some short duration.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#248

Post by learnstats2 »

renewiltord wrote: post #247
learnstats2 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it informative that you want to fuck "him" over with intentional planning for the continued oppression of women.

Not a native speaker. Pronoun use was intended to represent neuter/indeterminate gender. Would alter to 'them' if this interpretation had high priors. Unfortunately this forum software does not permit edits past some short duration.

So was your point not that you could "fuck over" Arab men by oppressing Arab women?

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#249

Post by renewiltord »

learnstats2 wrote: post #248
renewiltord wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a native speaker. Pronoun use was intended to represent neuter/indeterminate gender. Would alter to 'them' if this interpretation had high priors. Unfortunately this forum software does not permit edits past some short duration.

So was your point not that you could "fuck over" Arab men by oppressing Arab women?

The point was that in a geopolitical sense, we can make Arab states weaker by encouraging their oppression of their citizens by telling them it's bad to oppress their citizens.

If the manner of their oppression is ethnic, then encourage that. If it's gender-based, then encourage that.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#250

Post by learnstats2 »

learnstats2 wrote: post #248
renewiltord wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a native speaker. Pronoun use was intended to represent neuter/indeterminate gender. Would alter to 'them' if this interpretation had high priors. Unfortunately this forum software does not permit edits past some short duration.

So was your point not that you could "fuck over" Arab men by oppressing Arab women?

So it was a racist and sexist point, aiming to use the misery of other people to enrich yourself (or, just for fun).
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