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Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

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Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#241
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you were Christian, you would get Christian judges, a Muslim would get the Muslim court and a Jewish person would likewise Do you know how this worked with disputes between people of different religions?

I have no idea, and that is a fascinating question.

According to this: https://specialessays.com/the-ottoman-empire-and-religion/

The judicial system of this empire was quite accommodative for an Islamic system. It had Islamic courts which were the primary courts and they formed the cornerstone of administration in the empire. But there were also other courts that were not based on Sharia law and were meant for the interpretation of the law as understood by non-Muslims who were part of the empire. They included Jews and Christians who had been welcomed to the empire and lived in groupings called millets. But the Jews and Christians had the freedom to take their cases to the Islamic courts if they wanted to and many did as a way of giving judicial credence to their cases, given the immense unofficial respect that was given to the Islamic courts. It should be noted that this recognition was informal and any decision from the other courts were equally respected in the empire.

The third type of courts was the trade/commercial/industrial or business courts. In these courts, disputes emanating from business within the empire were solved. The parties involved determined the inclination and sometimes, both Islamic law experts and Christian and Jewish judicial officers would sit side by side and decide a case. They were more concerned with securing justice and fairness and religion was never a key consideration. New laws into the three types of courts came from the top leadership as well as the judicial experts of the three courts.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#242
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is neither new nor first. Turkey has a court tradition that spans, at this point, more than seven hundred years (excluding Eastern Roman law with Corpus Iuris Civilis , which if included would bring it to 2500, an unbroken chain from whence it came, Rome) - to the point that it customarily allowed every sub-nation of the Ottoman Empire to have their own court and apply their own laws. For example, if you were Ch…

> if you were Christian, you would get Christian judges, a Muslim would get the Muslim court and a Jewish person would likewise Do you know how this worked with disputes between people of different religions?

It's not very clear actually because there were no rules regarding that. (AFAIK) We only have records for official Kadis(Regional Judges) and Divan-i Humayun (higher court). There are cases seen at kadi or divan-i humayun where one side is Muslim and the other side non-Muslim.

They are both institutions of the state and since the Ottoman Empire was an Islam state, they were obviously Islamic. But, Divan-i Humayun's decisions were "Sultan's Word" so they had to be fair. The usual/accepted route is to go Kadi first and then you can appeal to Divan-i Humayun. But it's seen im records that sometimes non-Muslims directly went to Divan-i Humayun because they believed that they wouldn't be treated fair at Kadi.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the case anymore. They built an application level filter. For example, Wikipedia block was due to http header reading. https wasn't also a solution because of hand-shaking part. Even TOR can be blocked this way but it's reachable through obfs4proxy. Besides that, DNS queries to all servers are blocked if you try to get a blocked site's IP. No hijacking attempt here, as far as I can see. I routed only Wikip…

I brought a Spanish SIM card in and had no problems accessing Wikipedia (or presumably any other site that would have been blocked).

Roaming tunnels your connection back to your home provider. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_IP

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we’re talking history: I’ve heard that the system of laws codified under Justinian in the Byzantine empire ended up forming the basis for most Western law systems to this day. My math is probably off here, but is the current Turkish court system a continuous descendant from that system?

That's why I left it separate under an asterisk. Not an expert, but I think what happened is that Emperor Justinian's code remained the base for the Christian law within the Empire until the modernisation, which was pretty much a merge of that tradition with updates pulled from French third republic with the exception of civil law, which was merged in from Switzerland instead. Up until 1851 the largest minority in th…

Turkey is not subject to the European Court of Justice as that’s an EU institution and Turkey is not a member.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#245

Wikipedia is down for me today, as well as a large part of Europe. Their tweet: https://twitter.com/Wikipedia/status/1221513346781982722 Could it be the Turkish regime DDoS-ing their servers?

What is worthy of the downvote punishment in this post? I am genuinely interested. Especially since the "regime DDoSes a site they don't like" happened with China and GitHub, so...?

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#246

"... a 26 December 2019 ruling by the Constitutional Court of Turkey that the more than two and a half year block imposed by the Turkish government was unconstitutional." Your takeaways: 1) Turkey has a Constitutional Court. 2) Turkey has a constitution. 3) The court makes rulings and they are carried out. 4) Erdogan did something and it was "checked" and "balanced." Sounds an awful lot like a nation of laws, ruled b…

You know that he has sent hundreds of judges to prison, right? Some of them were arrested on the bench.

This decision should read "Erdogan orders the Constitutional Court to restore access to Wikipedia".

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#247
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information Considering the censorship that goes on in Britain, Germany, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc, I'm not so sure about your claim. > Regimes that block access to the truth Lets not kid ourselves and pretend wikipedia is the "truth". Jimmy Wales has come out as being partisan and agend…

Sure, no single person is completely objective, but Wikipedia is not a news outlet with Jimmy Wales as editor-in-chief. It's an encyclopedia crowd-sourced from an immense number of volunteers, all with different knowledge. So popular articles can generally be trusted to be informative, as they were overseen by many people with overlapping knowledge. Surely this is a more objective source of information than most stat…

[deleted]

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#248

"... a 26 December 2019 ruling by the Constitutional Court of Turkey that the more than two and a half year block imposed by the Turkish government was unconstitutional." Your takeaways: 1) Turkey has a Constitutional Court. 2) Turkey has a constitution. 3) The court makes rulings and they are carried out. 4) Erdogan did something and it was "checked" and "balanced." Sounds an awful lot like a nation of laws, ruled b…

> guys it was lifted. After a ruling by a court. It took 2 and half years for this to happen. That does not sound like a nation of laws to me. Imagine if this happened in America. Would you be making apologist arguments, in that situation?

US seems like have it's own style, like the pursuit of Jullian Assange and shutdown of Lavabit. You could argue that it's worse .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#249
post #229
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that. The military and the judicial system had to be purged because a religious cult had colonized them, often exerting power for the cult's interests[0] and topping off with the coup attempt in 2016. In turn, the religious cult was allowed (by Erdoğan, with the 2010 referendum) to colonize the military and the judicial system because previously they were colonized by hardliner modernists w…

> The military and the judicial system had to be purged because a religious cult had colonized them Ok, just so we're clear on this: that's ridiculous nonsense, conspiracy theories basically, but you're using it to justify the indefensible actions of a hard-line authoritarian ruler.

Claiming a coup attempt as staged looks more like a conspiracy theory to me. Luckily, that was dismissed by the head of German intelligence[0].

> “The coup attempt was not initiated by the government. Before July 15 the government had already started a big purge so parts of the military thought they should do a coup quickly before it hit them too,” Kahl said.

In [0], Kahl dismisses the possibility that the Gülen movement did the coup. However, he fails to mention which other group in the military "feared" the purge and was big enough to attempt a coup.

If you combine that with: - the 2010-11 purge of nationalist-modernists from the army was directed by Gülen people[1][2] (and supported by Erdoğan[3]) - all 4 military schools were totally infiltrated by Gülenists[4]

you would see that the Gülen movement was certainly in the army, and after the purge of nationalist-modernists, there was no other group in the Turkish army big enough and pissed off with the govt enough to attempt a coup. The testimonies of suspected army officers[5] mentioning Gülen is no surprise at this point.

When I see the purge of Gülen supporters to be generalized to Erdoğan opponents, something goes off in my mind. People who are against both Erdoğan and Gülen weren't targeted for that purge. If anything, they were trusted more than before, because many pro-Erdoğan people could get into state positions using Gülen connections pre-2013.

A good guestion to ask here is why did Erdoğan facilitate Gülen's infiltration of the institutions in the first place. As I mentioned above, it was because he feared a Kemalist coup or party shutdown. So, if Turkey didn't have the habit of "fending off populists with coups", none of this would happen. Or maybe it would?

All in all, what I'm trying to say is that the whole issue is more complex than "autocrat bad punish opponents".

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[0]: https://www.rt.com/news/381290-bnd-gulen-erdogan-coup/

[1]: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gundem/son-dakika-ergenekon-davas...

[2]: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/15-temmuz-darbe-girisimi/balyoz-dav...

[3]: http://www.radikal.com.tr/politika/erdogan-evet-savciyiz-888...

[4]: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/08/turkey-gu...

[5]: https://t24.com.tr/haber/15-temmuz-darbe-girisimi-ifadeleri-...

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#250
post #223

This is awesome. I think that edrogan really made a mistake, but I'm glad that they're going back and making things better.When I went to turkey, I was really sad that I couldn't wiki all the cool artifacts that I was seeing. So, I installed a vpn on kubernetes so that really likes VPN. Also, that enabled me to read about the stoic philosopher the roman guy emperorr. It was really cool!

Turkey ISPs throttle or ban foreign VPN services.

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