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Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

bbc.co.uk

241–250 of 262 posts

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#241
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The community here on HN seems to have a very negative opinion of school. PG seems to talk about it quite frequently. Here's a different viewpoint. I personally really enjoyed school. I enjoyed the social structure of school. I wasn't popular by any means, but I had my group of nerdy, academic friends who shared a passion for learning and building things. Learning how to deal with social conflicts, when they inevitab…

I think that negative articles attract people who were unhappy with schools and little bit those who push for homeschooling for ideological reasons. If you was alright with school, you have nothing to contribute to discussion.

For what it’s worth, I had a relatively positive experience with school and was a stereotypical “good” student.

But, I’m entirely aware that I was motivated to learn because I liked school, because I liked learning, because I had things I was interested in that school taught (math, history, literature, etc...) Others didn’t. I was never taught why school was good for me, I learned why school was good for me on my own, accidentally, and even then, I didn’t learn how to learn until college. Those meta-lessons, to me, are the hardest and most important lessons an education should teach.

It seems to me that discussions about school (like the featured article, and sadly, some of the comments) tunnel-vision on the stick and largely overlook the carrot from the student’s perspective (the one any successful education system must guide).

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#242
post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

Maybe school for kids should not be so serious business, like: ”Many schools in Japan control every aspect of their pupils' appearance, forcing pupils to dye their brown hair black, or not allowing pupils to wear tights or coats, even in cold weather. In some cases they even decide on the colour of pupils' underwear.” Why not just keep it fun? More playing, less homework.

> More playing

More playing? How will this prepare them for the real world where they’re expected to work 16 hour days.

I cannot shake the moment my Japanese acquaintances expressed incredulity that kids would actually play after school (or rather, that there was such a thing as after school play).

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#243
post #5

If you're a kid and do the cost/benefit analysis, going to school looks like a dumb decision and a huge opportunity cost for time that could otherwise be used for things with known reward (playing). Bullying, exams, homework, sleep disruption, etc is all cost. What does the student believe they get they out of it? The pathway from school to job is nebulous to young kids who don't yet need money to live. As kids get o…

+1. Even as an adult, If I could do it all again, I would avoid school as much as possible. School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own. Not saying every kid should do the same of course. But personnally, after being in 11 schools, including fancy private ones and ones in poor neighbourhoods, I found extremly few decent teachers, a v…

>School is an upgrade from child labor, but I now have enough experience to know it's a downgrade from what I can learn of my own.

Is it? I'd bet most kids, left to their own devices, they'd eat fast food, watch cartoons, and play games all day, and not learn anything...

>Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge.

Aren't these the basic things school teaches? Socialization?

People aren't all kind lovable beings, nor are situations non adversarial in life.

From this there's retreat to isolation from life (e.g. like those Japanese who refuse to exit their homes), or learning how others can be, how you can respond, how to make friends, win over enemies, ignore or defeat people who try to put you down, etc. Tertium non datur.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#244
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where: 1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very fe…

> At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job. ... or you figure out how to deal with conflict like an adult. If your way of handling conflict is firing people or taking your ball and going home, your long-term outlook is not so good. Working with people in a system is a skill that you figure out by being exposed to other people and dealing with th…

In principle, I agree. Conflict resolution between parties that are acting in good faith is an essential skill. However, bullies do not act in good faith, and trying to reason with them as a target is an exercise in futility.

Another essential skill is learning to recognize when you should remove yourself from a toxic environment for your own sake.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#245
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. Only prison is like this. In normal life, groups (Work, Family, social gatherings) are of mixed age, mixed experience, mixed rank. To become a better person, I had to forget the pettiness of High School social dynamics.

> I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where: 1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very fe…

>At your work, if someone is being a bully, then either management will fire them, or you can look for another job.

That's a very rosy view. It's premised on either an enlightened management who gives a crap if someone's being a bully (many don't, or are themselves the bullies) or people having the option to willy nilly quit a job because someone was a bully to them.

That might be true for a developer in some cushy job when IT is on demand.

It's not true for a huge majority of people who need their jobs and can't just jump ship if someone's being a bully or they're treated badly, etc...

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I don't miss having to fight for social acceptance, the bullying, the stress and pressure nor the hypocrisy of the ones in charge. Ironically this is somehow the most valuable lessons learned during school, since you ultimately have to deal with this shit throughout your life in most career paths. So at least you got prepared for that.

Yes, but should not have to learn about fire by putting your hand in it for 20 years. In a room full of pyromaniacs calling themself firefighters. As a defenseless kid. It looks like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/YiqlS Without the fun of it

Kids, since millennia, had hanged out and played in communities with kids of the same roughly age (and some bigger and scarier) before mandatory education / school was a thing...

It's not like absence of school meant kids would just be alone in their homes...

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#247
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. Only prison is like this. In normal life, groups (Work, Family, social gatherings) are of mixed age, mixed experience, mixed rank. To become a better person, I had to forget the pettiness of High School social dynamics.

> I think that the social dynamics of being stuck with 20 to 30 same-age same-rank peers for many months is highly unusual. This. Whenever people ask about "socialization" WRT home-schooling, I always tell people that you never any social situation like you do in school -- where: 1) Everyone is exactly the same age 2) Nobody chose to be there 3) People have little chance to change their situation 4) There are very fe…

Army service is the same except 4 (consequences for bad behaviour), and up until 40 years ago or so, was also the norm for a non-trivial percentage of the western population; furthermore, the "no consequences for bad behaviour" is also relatively new - the greatest generation, boomers, and the one following boomers (and their equivalents in other countries) still endured physical punishment.

So, up until not-so-many-decades-ago, your statement was incorrect. It is correct now, and indeed the schooling system has not caught up, but it is doing so slowly - e.g. the Finnish led, and others are following, in abolishing the "forced labor" homework requirement.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism? It's Japan . Whatever racism there could be, it's an extremely small, microscopic particle among the whole of the school system. Even if the incidents are egregious, this is not even among the top twenty reasons that "many" refuse to attend. As far back as the 1980's it was widely reported that Japanese expectations for children's performance and good behavior drive them to mental illness, from the top down,…

>Racism? It's Japan. Perhaps racism isn't the right descriptor. Japan has a caste system that puts India's to shame. It's smaller in the number of people living in the lower tiers, but the effects are amplified to a high degree. At least India puts some effort, futile or not, into forcing representation for its untouchables. In Japan, a member of the untouchable caste is actual, literal, human garbage especially in t…

7 years living in Japan. Both in city and countryside. Never seen anyone being discriminated on a "caste" system. I won't say it does not exist, but it is certainly not on the scale of things in India.

However I heard of two marriages kind of broken by parents who did not want a foreigner in their ranks though.

Racism does exist and I witnessed several occurrences of it against black people. Whites are generally better received, especially French, like I.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#249
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stupid things like imaginary lines drawn on soil. So let's erase all borders and see how we get on. Orwell: 'men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them.'

Actually we get on quite well in Europe, thank you very much. I suggest you take a car-ride through Northern France, close to Verdun, if those numberless WW1 cemeteries don’t change your mind I don’t know what else will.

You don't have true open borders in Europe. You need an EU passport, which is kind of the hard part. Try letting in anyone from any country with no restrictions and see how you get on. I'm not saying it won't work, just don't pretend like your borders are truly open.

Re: Many Japanese children refuse to go to school

#250
post #94

I think schools should teach/protect kids from Machiavellianism (manipulate/deceive others) Psychopathy (lack of remorse/empathy) Sadism (pleasure in suffering of others) Narcissism (egotism/self-obsession)

Agreed! If you find one that does this or have recommendations on how to teach about this, please share. As a parent, I want to impart knowledge on these things to my kids. We have always focused on teaching compassion and kindness. The real world is full of all kinds of people, with all kinds of values or lack of, and all kinds of parenting or lack of.

Sorry, I don't know; Wish someone writes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HowStuffWorks type of book for kids;
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