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China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

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Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#241

Post by tabtab »

tanilama wrote: post #137
robbrit wrote: post #92

Does anybody know how hard it is for non-Chinese citizens to live and work in China? One of the competitive advantages of the US has been its ability to draw top talent from all over the world and not just its own citizens. Chinese citizens leaving the US is not a good thing, but it is just one nationality. If China manages to draw talent from everywhere, then the US has a real problem ahead of it. For example, my te…

Pretty hard. China is not an immigrant country. If you don't look like Chinese/Asian, then you are an outiler. Diversity isn't something China, or East Asia values in general, uniformity instead.

Re: Diversity isn't something China, or East Asia values in general

It seems to be on the way out in the USA also, at least among followers of a certain orange-tinted politician.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#242

Post by helen___keller »

NTDF9 wrote: post #191

A lot of these conversations miss two aspects completely: 1. Smart STEM people are more inclined to having a family. Constant uncertainty is not conducive to family. That will cause a lot of smart people to be sea turtles. 2. The most significant drawback of smart people congregating elsewhere is that future American companies are fucked. There is just going to be a lot more competition for products globally. Future…

>1. Smart STEM people are more inclined to having a family. Constant uncertainty is not conducive to family. That will cause a lot of smart people to be sea turtles.

Also, even for the well-compensated, it's financially very difficult to afford the 'ol house & car dream in what I would expect are top locations for immigrants (SF bay area, New York, Boston, Seattle, LA, ...). Certain parts of China also have absurdly expensive real estate (Shanghai, Beijing), but rent tends to be much more affordable and if you have family nearby the whole housing situation becomes much easier.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#243

Post by Konnstann »

magduf wrote: post #237
dfeojm-zlib wrote: post #202

As long as people keep coming to the US to get an education, that helps the economics of academia; out-of-state tuition paid for by somebody else (usually, countries or rich families) is $$$$. Maybe the problem is the US isn't as welcoming socially, politically or bureaucratically (visa process) as it once was? That's a PR image problem that the current political climate tarnished through inept and ignorant messaging…

>Maybe the problem is the US isn't as welcoming socially, politically or bureaucratically (visa process) as it once was? That's a PR image problem that the current political climate tarnished through inept and ignorant messaging. This isn't correct at all. It's true the US isn't very welcoming any more, but this isn't through "inept and ignorant messaging", it's not inept at all: the US voters clearly don't want fore…

There's an argument that the "American Voters" who voted in the current administration do not represent the same people who care about the "brain drain" and effects of said drain on tech/STEM in the US. The average Trump voter isn't competing with foreigners for PhD positions.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#244

Post by magduf »

Konnstann wrote: post #243
magduf wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe the problem is the US isn't as welcoming socially, politically or bureaucratically (visa process) as it once was? That's a PR image problem that the current political climate tarnished through inept and ignorant messaging. This isn't correct at all. It's true the US isn't very welcoming any more, but this isn't through "inept and ignorant messaging", it's not inept at all: the US voters clearly don't want fore…

There's an argument that the "American Voters" who voted in the current administration do not represent the same people who care about the "brain drain" and effects of said drain on tech/STEM in the US. The average Trump voter isn't competing with foreigners for PhD positions.

I don't think you need to make an argument for what you wrote, I think that's pretty obvious.

But the people who care about the brain drain are being outvoted by the voters who support this administration, and are honestly happy about the brain drain.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#245

Post by user5994461 »

yomly wrote: post #198
baybal2 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Electronics. Consumer and industrial 2. Just for any engineering job in China there is a personal "middle income trap" of around net CNY25000-30000 per month. You reach it, and your career progression stalls, possibly for a decade or so. Progress past the formal "senior" level is a rare, rare luck. At 30000 net a month, you can live very very well in China.

Any idea what people at BAT earn? 30k rmb isn't bad for being in China but also isn't great at global level...

You must be kidding. It's incredibly good at global level.

The currency conversion gives 38k-47k euros. It's about the top compensation you could get in Europe, ignoring London and Switzerland.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#246

Post by lostmsu »

axaxs wrote: post #197
flyinglizard wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t health insurance, in the case of tech workers at least, usually covered by the employer?

Typically, only partially. I don't even remember what I pay now, but it's more than a couple hundred per month. And that still has out of pocket costs, deductibles, etc. It's a giant scam.

MS-provided insurance used to have $3500 deductible per family, which is very little in terms of salary percentage.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#247

Post by yomly »

user5994461 wrote: post #245
yomly wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any idea what people at BAT earn? 30k rmb isn't bad for being in China but also isn't great at global level...

You must be kidding. It's incredibly good at global level. The currency conversion gives 38k-47k euros. It's about the top compensation you could get in Europe, ignoring London and Switzerland.

If you can afford a house in London, you can probably afford a house in XYZ

The reverse doesn't usually follow (unless XYZ is Monaco :p)

So "global" is relative but if in my personal view "global" everyone in SV, or NYC or Dubai or London is competing with you on purchasing power and general access to resources so local quality of life is only half the picture.

Unless of course you choose to completely sign out of the "chase" which is a viable strategy and its own set of tradeoffs

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#248

Post by m0llusk »

wesleyfsmith wrote: post #9

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

American educated Chinese could help to improve the economy and governance in China which in turn would help with trade and international relations. China coming on line as a platform for professional success with strong internal markets is potentially a very good thing for all global trade partners.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#249

Post by user5994461 »

yomly wrote: post #247
user5994461 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be kidding. It's incredibly good at global level. The currency conversion gives 38k-47k euros. It's about the top compensation you could get in Europe, ignoring London and Switzerland.

If you can afford a house in London, you can probably afford a house in XYZ The reverse doesn't usually follow (unless XYZ is Monaco :p) So "global" is relative but if in my personal view "global" everyone in SV, or NYC or Dubai or London is competing with you on purchasing power and general access to resources so local quality of life is only half the picture. Unless of course you choose to completely sign out of th…

Nobody is competing globally. If you're Chinese (or wherever) you can only work legally in a few places in the world and you won't be treated as well as the locals (lower compensation too). Moving abroad also means abandoning your friends and family and culture and inheritance, with financial and non financial effects.

Working in an high costs of living area for a few years -if at all possible- is of course a viable strategy to save some money before going back home.

Re: China's rising tech scene threatens US brain drain as ‘sea turtles’ return home

#250

Post by winter_blue »

programmertote wrote: post #63
wesleyfsmith wrote: post #9

The most concerning quote: "About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now go back — up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education. Some 15 percent take jobs in China’s booming tech sector." Attracting top global talent has always been a competitive advance for America, and it's not a good sign for our economy if we can't retain people that we are educating here.

I see the trend in my coworkers at a big-four ad tech firm as well. At least a couple of them have gone home in the last six months (one of them had her H1B approved less than a year ago as well; and another one already is nearing her STEM OPT extension of 18 months). I came to the US in mid 2000 to study at a fairly well-known liberal arts college (with full scholarships). I worked at a start-up in SF after graduati…

I'm a bit late to this thread, so I don't know if you'll see my comment, but I was wondering about this:

> even after 2 years of the process, I am still at the very first step of the application process where the company is waiting for the department of labor (DoL) to provide prevailing wage determination

According to the DOL website[1], the processing time for PWD (Prevailing Wage Determination) is currently (as of June 2019) is 122 days. How is it possible that they don't have the PWD done even after 2 years?

[1] https://icert.doleta.gov/index.cfm?event=ehGeneral.dspProces...

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