Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#241

Post by blub » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

Tor3 wrote: post #143

hh3k0 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders. Just because she qualifies as Japanese from your point of view doesn't mean that the Japanese have to view it like you. White savior comple…

> but rather are the genetic conglomerate of their ancestors (which is hard to argue against) and thus links in a chain But that's exactly it. It's not like that. Or shouldn't be. That's not what makes a person a part of a group (town, city, region, country, etc). It's a constraining, and wrong way of looking at things. It's something to grow out of. Heck, in my hometown we consider someone as 'from' this town (to tr…

It seems to me that disturbingly many people (predominantly western white men, I'd hazard, but women aren't spared either) are afflicted by a syndrome which makes them truly believe that race, ethnicity or nationality don't matter and that we're all the same. Not that we should have the same rights and obligations, but that we're the same with some cute, "enriching" but irrelevant exceptions such as music, food, etc.

Unfortunately for them, they're also the only ones believing that, ending up in the unenviable situation of sacrificing their individuality, grovelling for unity and making up excuses for the inevitable cultural friction. Meanwhile everyone else is damn proud of their heritage and they stick together.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#242

Post by sprash » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

llamathrowaway wrote: post #235

sprash wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they were tibal. They caused lots of problems and the result is a popular culture defined by McDonalds and MickeyMouse.

Ironically there are not only one, but two, Disneylands in Tokyo, and they seem to be popular among locals. There also seem to be more McDonald’s per capita in Japan than Europe. And don’t get me started on faux-European food in Japan (they do taste nice, though.) So no, Japan, which is very well integrated into the global economy, is not that different from the west in terms of cultural consumption. People who still…

Indeed, the main feature of a unsophiscated culture catering to the lowest common denominator is that it is rootless. Japan or anyone adopting it is not a good thing.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#243

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:13 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #242

llamathrowaway wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically there are not only one, but two, Disneylands in Tokyo, and they seem to be popular among locals. There also seem to be more McDonald’s per capita in Japan than Europe. And don’t get me started on faux-European food in Japan (they do taste nice, though.) So no, Japan, which is very well integrated into the global economy, is not that different from the west in terms of cultural consumption. People who still…

Indeed, the main feature of a unsophiscated culture catering to the lowest common denominator is that it is rootless. Japan or anyone adopting it is not a good thing.

Japan has been adopting outside influences for over a century. Not to mention, it has been handily exporting its own culture. So it has contributed to the global pop culture that you are denouncing. It is complicit. And yet, it is hardly the death of high culture as you predict.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#244

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:15 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #238

Apocryphon wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we're not talking about different cheeses, but perhaps different dairy products. Yogurt is not a cheese. While not free of problems, Canada's immigration situation seems to not have attracted the same amount of problems as seen in other Western nations. Strange that Japan isn't adopting a similar points-based system. But it seems like the sort of Japanese innovation that could arise. One would presume a Japanese…

>Strange that Japan isn't adopting a similar points-based system They do use a points-based system for highly-skilled workers: http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/evaluate/index.htm... >One would presume a Japanese immigration policy and pathway of citizenship would mandate learning the language and other ways to facilitate assimilation It strongly does and is incredibly difficult otherwise. When applying for c…

So given how historically stringent the Japanese government has been in doling out citizenship, it stands to reason even an "open" policy would be more measured and less laissez-faire than those in, say, Nordic countries, no?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#245

Post by blub » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

magpi3 wrote: post #185

hh3k0 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders. Just because she qualifies as Japanese from your point of view doesn't mean that the Japanese have to view it like you. White savior comple…

If mixed ethnicity makes you less Japanese than of course you will be discriminated against. At the very least families who want their descendants to be "more" Japanese will resist allowing their children to marry those who are "less" Japanese. That is discrimination. Even the term "less Japanese" sounds like a perjorative in a country so deeply founded on a specific cultural identity. We live in a global world now.…

"We live in a global world now. Countries that fundamentally tie their culture to ethnicities will someday be a thing of the past. "

No we don't and no they won't be. The only countries that are making this mistake are those from Western Europe and the US & co. Others are proud of their heritage, cherish it and fight for their culture.

Your utopia may only be true once we become space-faring and encounter other species. Only then our humanity will unite us in spite of our differences.

The US... is a darn poor choice of example. Half the population voted for a president that wants to build a wall around Mexico. Half the population are short-sighted fools, are they? The US is rife with ethnic conflict, I used to think it's a success story, but now I think that it's a ticking time bomb.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#246

Post by blub » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

zlakb wrote: post #146

hh3k0 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, she is "all" Japanese. She grew up in Japan, with her Japanese mother, attending Japanese schools. This is the subtle bigotry toward people who are "half" (as they're called in Japan) rather than "dual". Many Japanese will always consider them "less Japanese" or outsiders. Just because she qualifies as Japanese from your point of view doesn't mean that the Japanese have to view it like you. White savior comple…

If you said the same thing of a European country your comment would be flagged already.

I don't know how you meant that, but this is absolutely the case in every European country that I know of.

You are considered one of them if you have the appropriate skin color, name, accent, etc. This is so deeply ingrained in the human psyche that it's nuts to even fight it. It will only change when a large enough part of the population will have the "wrong" skin color, name or accent. Or you get large scale open conflicts, I guess, there's no guarantees of a happy end, on the contrary.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#247

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:24 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #239

Apocryphon wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like that comment is judging a narrative or a meme, and not the person who made the comment itself.

Just for fun, let's pedantically parse the words and see if that's where we differ (key [words/phrases in brackets] for my parsing). >>> If [[successful] people are having fewer kids] than [unsuccessful] people then haven't we created a [dysgenic] system? >> [This view] is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but [in real life] [it] [[smacks of] [eugenics]] and the Divine Right Of The Rich…

It might be a mistaken assumption born from misclustering, but given that, as you point out, dysgenic is the antonym of eugenics, and as we can see from a not unrelated conversation from the past day [0] repeating that popular narrative, it is not a leap to presume that all of this is related.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19985045

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#248

Post by blub » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #181

duxup wrote: post #24

It will be interesting to see how Japan deals with it culturally. From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always clear that they were very much outsiders.

The crime free nature of Japan will be a thing of a past. The quality of life for natives will decrease vastly. Wages will be pushed further down. Having worked together on many projects with Japanese I know immigrants have nothing of value to offer to the Japanese people. Personally I'd rather live in a homogeneous society having seen how multiculturalism has decreased the quality of life for everybody in my country…

While instinctively I am a bit repulsed by your comment, rationally I have to grudgingly admit that you are probably right.

It's undeniable that diversity offers some advantages, but if the mixing is done in an uncontrolled way as it typically is and a certain ratio of natives to immigrants is reached there will be conflict, friction and misery. Look to Western Europe for what might await, although Western Europe has failed quite spectacularly at multiculturalism in a way that's probably unattainable by the Japanese :)

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#249

Post by blub » Thu, May 23, 2019, 7:48 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #212

llamathrowaway wrote: post #209

It’s funny to see the comments lamenting the projected destruction of Japanese culture, while in fact - the Japanese language is littered with loan words written in katakana even though native words of the same meaning often exist already - office workers all wear suits - the music scene is not very different from the west. Rock is huge and there is a great jazz scene. While bands playing Japanese instruments are rar…

>But from what I have read in this thread, much of the speculation about the loss of the 'unique' Japanese culture has more to do about what is happening in the west than what will happen in Japan. Yes. Japan has become sort of an ideal example of a successful modern ethnostate for Western opponents of multiculturalism. A lot of fears Westerners express about Japan losing its cultural homogeneity are just a proxy for…

With Trump, Brexit and the turmoil in Europe we're way past just "opposing" multiculturalism. Multiculturalism seems to be imploding.

I was and am not fascinated by Japan, and to be honest I didn't always enjoy my visit there. It was frustrating to feel so... foreign. I complained about them not speaking English and was annoyed that I couldn't even read a simple sign.

And yet, looking back I cherish that time and a feeling of respect has developed inside me. Because Japan was Japan, and didn't bend itself to my will, of that of other "guests" that want to change it to fit their imagination.

It was as solid as a rock and that counts for something.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#250

Post by mistermann » Thu, May 23, 2019, 8:29 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #247

mistermann wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for fun, let's pedantically parse the words and see if that's where we differ (key [words/phrases in brackets] for my parsing). >>> If [[successful] people are having fewer kids] than [unsuccessful] people then haven't we created a [dysgenic] system? >> [This view] is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but [in real life] [it] [[smacks of] [eugenics]] and the Divine Right Of The Rich…

It might be a mistaken assumption born from misclustering, but given that, as you point out, dysgenic is the antonym of eugenics, and as we can see from a not unrelated conversation from the past day [0] repeating that popular narrative, it is not a leap to presume that all of this is related. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19985045

That comment is certainly related, but unless I'm misunderstanding the relevance to our conversation that you're seeing, it's an aspect other than the one I'm interested in, which is:

a) the mechanism used by CptFribble to produce specific details where none existed before (although I think we've settled this, and are not in disagreement?)

b) how you and I came to different conclusions on whether CptFribble's comment was (or was not) judgemental of slang800 (attributing a personal support of eugenics) - this I don't think is settled?