Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#211

Post by wtdata » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #205

Some are saying this is a response to needing more people due to decreasing fertility rates. At least in the US, I was shocked to learn that people actually _want_ children at the same rates as before (about 2.5 kids, and 95% of people want children). However, according to these sources, the major reason is that its too expensive (~65%) and the economy seems uncertain (~12%). Gallup Data: https://news.gallup.com/poll…

Why were you shocked? 2.5 children per couple is just slightly above the replacement rate.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#212

Post by krapp » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

llamathrowaway wrote: post #209

It’s funny to see the comments lamenting the projected destruction of Japanese culture, while in fact - the Japanese language is littered with loan words written in katakana even though native words of the same meaning often exist already - office workers all wear suits - the music scene is not very different from the west. Rock is huge and there is a great jazz scene. While bands playing Japanese instruments are rar…

>But from what I have read in this thread, much of the speculation about the loss of the 'unique' Japanese culture has more to do about what is happening in the west than what will happen in Japan.

Yes. Japan has become sort of an ideal example of a successful modern ethnostate for Western opponents of multiculturalism. A lot of fears Westerners express about Japan losing its cultural homogeneity are just a proxy for fears of the loss of white power and identity in the US and Europe, as an expression of the current right-wing xenophobic reactionary shift going on in the West.

It's just a weird new form of Orientalism. Instead of fetishising them for their art, or their business practices, or their "submissive" women, we're fetishizing their ethnic identity and racial purity.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#213

Post by cloakandswagger » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

allemagne wrote: post #8

benjohnson wrote: post #2

Im conflicted about this - I enjoy the multicultural aspects of my own town (Seattle) but I also sympathise with this idea of having a home culture.

I sympathize with the general desire to preserve a sense of cultural identity, but ultimately any attempt to keep a society static through time will slip through your fingers. No exceptions. At some point, especially at the pace the modern world is changing, we need to ask ourselves how much better off we'd be if we stopped putting so much meaning into an idea that's ultimately just a nice momentary illusion at best.

The familiar nihilist refrain of globalism.

"We live in a global world now, homogeneity is futile."

And they wonder, after presenting their ideology as an unstoppable, all-consuming force of nature, why people take issue with it.

As humans we have the agency to control our nations and their respective cultures and genetic makeups. This only becomes impossible when you adopt a Western value system that makes never-ending economic growth your only goal.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#214

Post by bliblah » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

rockinghigh wrote: post #199

bliblah wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very accurate, countries do not share citizenship data so it is impossible for them to know who has 2 or more passports. I have several friends that have remained in possessions of their previous passports and still renew them in case they ever need them.

No, it’s highly dependent on the countries involved. When you apply for the second citizenship, that country knows about your first citizenship. They can decide to force you to choose one. And the first country may or may not allow you to give up that citizenship. As an example, you can read about dual citizenship in Europe here: https://m.dw.com/cda/en/dual-citizenship-in-europe-which-rul... You will see that the ru…

You misunderstand. The USA does not have a list of Japanese Citizens, meaning that if a Japanese citizen decides to become and American one they have no concrete proof that he discarded his proof of Japanese citizenship (in this case a Passport) unless they reach out to Japan.

Unless you are an international criminal the US will not waste time or resources requesting that information.

This is true for most countries.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#215

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #193

Apocryphon wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for the commenter, but it could be a simple yet rigorous heuristic of seeing a particular buzzword used in certain conversations, reading the context statement that the buzzword is employed under, and matching that statement to a particular ideological narrative that is often prevalent in discussion circles such as HN.

I just realized the original person that made the comment wasn't the one that replied, my bad. But I agree, this is indeed what happened. Another similarly true explanation is, he used his imagination . It's interesting to me how judging people based on heuristics is sometimes fine, even admirable, but other times it is Very Very Bad. It's also funny how these types of ideas seem to offend people, judging by voting a…

Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people. Maybe judgment towards a preexisting narrative or meme. People need to take things less personally in arguments, and feel less offended when the ideas they’re repeating are challenged.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#216

Post by Xeago » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

mvid wrote: post #210

rockinghigh wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s highly dependent on the countries involved. When you apply for the second citizenship, that country knows about your first citizenship. They can decide to force you to choose one. And the first country may or may not allow you to give up that citizenship. As an example, you can read about dual citizenship in Europe here: https://m.dw.com/cda/en/dual-citizenship-in-europe-which-rul... You will see that the ru…

Yes, but I believe the point is that you can lie that you gave up the first one, even if you didn’t. There isn’t a way of checking

There’s quite a few territories where you need to get a license/seal/stamp/signature from the administration of your current citizenship. Going deeper, it’s then common for that request to only be authorized given the promise of the administration of the new citizenship to grand you this new citizenship. A two-way commit of sorts.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#217

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #183

Apocryphon wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, it seems highly dubious that opening up to economic migration means the same set of policies used everywhere, and the same results everywhere.

We've seen the same results in every country that has attempted it, so why would one more country be any different? How many repeating occurrences of something occurring do you need before you can look at the data and go "There's a strong correlation there." without being called or implied to be a racist?

Because if cultures are real, then it stands to reason that an immigration policy set by Japanese people would be different from one set by Western Europeans.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#218

Post by program_whiz » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

wtdata wrote: post #211

program_whiz wrote: post #205

Some are saying this is a response to needing more people due to decreasing fertility rates. At least in the US, I was shocked to learn that people actually _want_ children at the same rates as before (about 2.5 kids, and 95% of people want children). However, according to these sources, the major reason is that its too expensive (~65%) and the economy seems uncertain (~12%). Gallup Data: https://news.gallup.com/poll…

Why were you shocked? 2.5 children per couple is just slightly above the replacement rate.

I was shocked because people _want_ to have children and the same number of children that they did decades ago, its just economic reasons why they aren't (not cultural shifts or beliefs changing, or wanting to "have a bigger career").

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#219

Post by wtdata » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #218

wtdata wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why were you shocked? 2.5 children per couple is just slightly above the replacement rate.

I was shocked because people _want_ to have children and the same number of children that they did decades ago, its just economic reasons why they aren't (not cultural shifts or beliefs changing, or wanting to "have a bigger career").

Again, why shouldn't they? 2.5 children is a perfectly acceptable number.

Also, the birthrate in the USA (and most Western world) is already below the replacement rate for decades now. [1]

[1] https://www.iheart.com/content/2019-05-15-birth-rate-in-unit...

EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't understanding your point that families can't afford to have as many kids as they could one generation ago. I agree with you.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#220

Post by umadon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

hh3k0 wrote: post #156

Tor3 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but rather are the genetic conglomerate of their ancestors (which is hard to argue against) and thus links in a chain But that's exactly it. It's not like that. Or shouldn't be. That's not what makes a person a part of a group (town, city, region, country, etc). It's a constraining, and wrong way of looking at things. It's something to grow out of. Heck, in my hometown we consider someone as 'from' this town (to tr…

It is revolting how terribly arrogant your comment is, really. They don't have a "wrong way of looking at things" simply because it is not your way. And your way is by no means the way.

Genetic determinism is an essential tenet of eugenics.