Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#231

Post by tveita » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

wtdata wrote: post #219

program_whiz wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was shocked because people _want_ to have children and the same number of children that they did decades ago, its just economic reasons why they aren't (not cultural shifts or beliefs changing, or wanting to "have a bigger career").

Again, why shouldn't they? 2.5 children is a perfectly acceptable number. Also, the birthrate in the USA (and most Western world) is already below the replacement rate for decades now. [1] [1] https://www.iheart.com/content/2019-05-15-birth-rate-in-unit... EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't understanding your point that families can't afford to have as many kids as they could one generation ago. I agree with you.

The poster is shocked because people's (self-estimated) ability to afford kids has gone down, leading to a larger number of people who want kids to stay childless. They are not saying that people wanting kids is a bad thing.

Many people assume that people have less kids because preferences and lifestyles have changed, leading to headlines like, "Millennials don't want kids" (And maybe in the same vein, "Millennials are killing cars", "Millennials want smaller homes", etc.)

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#232

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #230

Apocryphon wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if cultures are real, then it stands to reason that an immigration policy set by Japanese people would be different from one set by Western Europeans.

There are only so many ways to make cheese and most of the process is going to remain the same. Being a different or unique culture doesn't fundamentally change how cheese is manufactured. I fail to see your point. There are only so many ways to do set immigration policy and currently Japanese policy is different from ones used by Western countries. Much to the chagrin of the Western countries criticizing it as their…

But we're not talking about different cheeses, but perhaps different dairy products. Yogurt is not a cheese.

While not free of problems, Canada's immigration situation seems to not have attracted the same amount of problems as seen in other Western nations. Strange that Japan isn't adopting a similar points-based system. But it seems like the sort of Japanese innovation that could arise. One would presume a Japanese immigration policy and pathway of citizenship would mandate learning the language and other ways to facilitate assimilation, different from the policies of most Western nations.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#233

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #229

Apocryphon wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people. Maybe judgment towards a preexisting narrative or meme. People need to take things less personally in arguments, and feel less offended when the ideas they’re repeating are challenged.

> Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people. Are we perhaps referring to different comments? I was referring to: "This view is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but in real life it smacks of eugenics and the Divine Right Of The Rich."

Seems like that comment is judging a narrative or a meme, and not the person who made the comment itself.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#234

Post by sprash » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:18 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #227

sprash wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's a choice someone makes If you have a vastly non-tribalistic society (.e.g. western society) and introduce masses of highly tribalistic immigrants then the host society has no choice but to either become tribalistic itself or die. There is no choice. The survivor will always be the strongest, most ruthless, brutal and tribalisitc tribe. We had a great technology that shielded us from that kind of tribal confl…

Yes, because the Sicilians who left during the struggles of Italian unification, the Irish who left during the wars of independence against the British, and the Germans and other Europeans who left during the revolutions of 1848 to enter the Americas were not tribal at all.

Of course they were tibal. They caused lots of problems and the result is a popular culture defined by McDonalds and MickeyMouse.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#235

Post by llamathrowaway » Thu, May 23, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #234

Apocryphon wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because the Sicilians who left during the struggles of Italian unification, the Irish who left during the wars of independence against the British, and the Germans and other Europeans who left during the revolutions of 1848 to enter the Americas were not tribal at all.

Of course they were tibal. They caused lots of problems and the result is a popular culture defined by McDonalds and MickeyMouse.

Ironically there are not only one, but two, Disneylands in Tokyo, and they seem to be popular among locals. There also seem to be more McDonald’s per capita in Japan than Europe. And don’t get me started on faux-European food in Japan (they do taste nice, though.)

So no, Japan, which is very well integrated into the global economy, is not that different from the west in terms of cultural consumption. People who still treat Japan as the mysterious land of samurais (ninjas seem outdated) and kabukis, unadulterated by western influence will, on their visit to Japan, struggle in the same way Japanese tourists struggled in Paris.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#236

Post by throaw » Thu, May 23, 2019, 6:15 PM UTC

themagician wrote: post #50

blfr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative? Having kids. Having a sustainable culture rather than some weird human shredder reliant on constant stream of new souls from abroad.

People can’t afford to have kids. Maybe if young people didn’t have to spend a huge portion of their paycheck supporting old people they could afford kids. The older generation doesn’t want immigrants. The older generation votes against tax increases. The older generation does everything they can to keep home prices high. Then they demand no one cut their entitlements. All take, no give. It’s not surprising people ar…

[flagged]

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#237

Post by cthalupa » Thu, May 23, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

imetatroll wrote: post #163

cthalupa wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>From folks I know who lived there they said that while everyone was nice, it was always clear that they were very much outsiders. I spend a fair amount of time in Tokyo for work, and I'd say this is accurate. My 日本語 is far from fluent, but it's frequently better than the English being spoken by random people on the street... yet it will take a good 20-30 seconds of me replying in Japanese before they'll switch away…

To each their own I guess. I often find that Japanese prefer to speak to me in Japanese and in fact are relieved to know that I can communicate in Japanese. I have never once experienced this attitude that you are describing and I've lived here for many years. I have only ever felt welcome. And I frequently meet foreigners with a chip on their shoulder describing how we will always be "outsiders". I find it rather od…

It's awesome that that's been your experience! I genuinely hope that continues.

It unfortunately is not the only experience, and the evidence I've seen points towards it being far from the norm. It's possible those foreigners you're meeting frequently are just jerks, and that that is contributing to it, but the possibility also exists that they might have that chip on their shoulder because their concerns are genuine.

The documentary iandanforth mentions is a good example of the stuff I'm talking about. You don't need to take my word for it - you can see the genuine experiences of others living in Japan.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#238

Post by Nadya » Thu, May 23, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #232

Nadya wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are only so many ways to make cheese and most of the process is going to remain the same. Being a different or unique culture doesn't fundamentally change how cheese is manufactured. I fail to see your point. There are only so many ways to do set immigration policy and currently Japanese policy is different from ones used by Western countries. Much to the chagrin of the Western countries criticizing it as their…

But we're not talking about different cheeses, but perhaps different dairy products. Yogurt is not a cheese. While not free of problems, Canada's immigration situation seems to not have attracted the same amount of problems as seen in other Western nations. Strange that Japan isn't adopting a similar points-based system. But it seems like the sort of Japanese innovation that could arise. One would presume a Japanese…

>Strange that Japan isn't adopting a similar points-based system

They do use a points-based system for highly-skilled workers: http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/evaluate/index.htm...

>One would presume a Japanese immigration policy and pathway of citizenship would mandate learning the language and other ways to facilitate assimilation

It strongly does and is incredibly difficult otherwise. When applying for citizenship if you struggle at all when asked questions in Japanese you will likely, if not certainly, be rejected. There are countless anecdotal stories out there confirming the difficulties in attaining citizenship from people who already have permanent resident status.

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#239

Post by mistermann » Thu, May 23, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #233

mistermann wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn’t seem to be much judgment going on in that comment towards people. Are we perhaps referring to different comments? I was referring to: "This view is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but in real life it smacks of eugenics and the Divine Right Of The Rich."

Seems like that comment is judging a narrative or a meme, and not the person who made the comment itself.

Just for fun, let's pedantically parse the words and see if that's where we differ (key [words/phrases in brackets] for my parsing).

>>> If [[successful] people are having fewer kids] than [unsuccessful] people then haven't we created a [dysgenic] system?

>> [This view] is popular, even if in jest like "haha Idiocracy was right guise!!" but [in real life] [it] [[smacks of] [eugenics]] and the Divine Right Of The Rich.

...

> Seems like that comment is judging a narrative or a meme, and not the person who made the comment itself.

To be extra safe, let's add some context, to make sure we're using the same definitions and "facts":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenics

Dysgenics is the study of factors producing the accumulation and perpetuation of defective or disadvantageous genes and traits in offspring of a particular population or species. The adjective "dysgenic" is the antonym of "eugenic".

"smacks of": To be a sign or symbol of something: signify, stand for, symbolize

"eugenics": Eugenics is the science of improving the human species by selectively mating people with specific desirable hereditary traits. It aims to reduce human suffering by “breeding out” disease, disabilities and so-called undesirable characteristics from the human population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

"The heritability of IQ for adults is between 57% and 73%[6] with some more-recent estimates as high as 80%[7] and 86%.[8] IQ goes from being weakly correlated with genetics, for children, to being strongly correlated with genetics for late teens and adults. The heritability of IQ increases with age and reaches an asymptote at 18–20 years of age and continues at that level well into adulthood. This phenomenon is known as the Wilson Effect.[9] Recent studies suggest that family and parenting characteristics are not significant contributors to variation in IQ scores;[10] however, poor prenatal environment, malnutrition and disease can have deleterious effects.[11][12]"

To me (my interpretation):

- OP seems to be asserting that "successful" people having fewer kids is detrimental to the overall well being of society.

- The person replying implies disagreement with this popular view (narrative/meme), but then goes on to assert (again, my interpretation) that those who hold this view (when it is put forth "in real life", which is what I interpret "it" to refer to) are in support (at least implicitly) of eugenics.

Do you perhaps think OP doesn't personally hold the stated view, or the replier doesn't believe OP personally holds the stated view? Personally, when I see no language to indicate either are talking in purely theoretical/philosophical (devil's advocate, etc) terms, by default I tend to take people's statements at face value (while keeping in mind the ever-present possibility that something important was lost in translation).

I'm genuinely very curious if this is significantly different than how you view (parse the language to derive the actually intended meaning) the exchange?

Re: Japan Begins Experiment of Opening to Immigration

#240

Post by blub » Thu, May 23, 2019, 6:50 PM UTC

havill wrote: post #139

anthuman wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you claim that she is all japanese, then aren't you denying her african-american roots? She is half japanese because half of her family and genetic history is from japan. The other half is from her african american father. Isn't it more bigoted to deny that half of her comes from her african american father? Also, there is a difference between ethnicity and nationality. She may be a full japanese national, but she…

> heredity and skin color most definitely has something to do with the japanese ethnicity. Only to racists. Just as being Jewish is an ethnicity (as well as a religion), you don't have to be white or have Jewish parents to be of Jewish ethnicity. More and more Japanese Nationals with mixed race are born all the time, and raised completely in Japan and only speak Japanese, yet would "pass as white." And when they're f…

I've included a definition of racism here for you: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior".

Given that there is no prejudice or antagonism present, your accusation of racism is nonsense. In fact you're doing something as equally poisonous as racists, except in reverse: pretending that there is no race, no ethnicity. Erasing the heritage of people with a sponge in order to depict a so-called utopia that nobody except extremists wants.