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EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

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Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No; tokyodude is asking what happens if you request that (for example) Google erases your data, and he has your email address in his Gmail contacts. Oh, well in that case this is explicitly handled in recital 18. https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-18/ > Point (b) seems to suggest that it applies by default if the basis for originally processing the data was the subject's consent... but that the controller can override…

I think part of the issue here is that a plain English reading of the GDPR implies such appalling totalitarian overreach that most people find it hard to believe that it can really be what's meant. I mean, you've just agreed with my reading that the GDPR gives me the power to reach into your personal inbox and censor your records of communications with me. That sort of power for bad actors to carry out historical rev…

>I mean, you've just agreed with my reading that the GDPR gives me the power to reach into your personal inbox and censor your records of communications with me.

That's quite literally the opposite of what recital 18 explicitly says?

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No; tokyodude is asking what happens if you request that (for example) Google erases your data, and he has your email address in his Gmail contacts. Oh, well in that case this is explicitly handled in recital 18. https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-18/ > Point (b) seems to suggest that it applies by default if the basis for originally processing the data was the subject's consent... but that the controller can override…

> Oh, well in that case this is explicitly handled in recital 18. https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-18/ I disagree. One's GMail contacts is a clear (ha) example of a fuzzy scenario that I think is ... questionably handled by the language at the link you reference. It's difficult especially because it's a weird hybrid of a very personal or household activity that runs inside a commercial activity. From the text: > 1 Th…

>One last thing: If your interpretation is right (and it seems plausible, maybe even likely), then I really need to locally archive my emails and contacts more often haha.

I mean, yeah, you probably should if you care about it. Most office exchange servers are configured to allow some users to "unsend" emails. Outlook dutifully deletes the email from my co-workers inboxes, but my thunderbird client simply tells me that someone sent a recall request and lets me choose what to do with it.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But since its enforcement can be completely contrary to the intent, intent only matters to the enforcers if they want it to matter. The actual enforcement, whether intended or not, is what really matters.

> But since its enforcement can be completely contrary to the intent, intent only matters to the enforcers if they want it to matter. Right, and my argument is that with legislation intended to serve the people, (GDPR), enforcement is likely to be much closer in line with the intent than say Article 13, which is the other way around, (serving corporations, not people). Enforcers are newer as aggressive when protectin…

[deleted]

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#244
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So ads that follow you everywhere and inescapable email signup forms haven't done it, but "cookies banners and GDPR popups have ruined the web". Got it.

I know you are being sarcastic, but honestly yes. I'm not too bothered about being tracked and having targeted ads. It doesn't negatively affect my experience. My ad-blocker takes care of most of the ads anyway. These intrusive popups and banners, on the other hand — especially the new post-GDPR in-your-face ones which I have to dismiss before I can even read a simple article — have ruined the user experience of the…

There are lists that can block these popups, if that's really your main concern. Still, I think saying that they're the bigger problem than the pervasive tracking they try to protect their users against, including only casual users, is a bit much.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid for my car. I still have to pay for gas on a regular basis. I still have to pay tolls on many roads and highways. I paid for a CD once, a long time ago. I still had to pay for electricity for the stereo. And that damn greedy electric company chose to charge me more for listening to it when I wanted to. Sure, I could have played my music from midnight to 6am, to take advantage of my evil utility's lower rates a…

I paid for a CD once, a long time ago. I still had to pay for electricity for the stereo. (...) Irrelevant, you already pay Netflix and your ISP. A better analogy would be: I paid for a stereo, but now I have to pay for listening to it because it's a Sony, whereas I wouldn't if it was a Philips. My mother barely uses the internet at her home, but she pays the same price I do. I am a very high bandwidth user. I defini…

> Irrelevant, you already pay Netflix and your ISP.

What did I pay my ISP for?

I can pay for cable television. I can pay extra for HBO, or not. I can only get NFL Sunday Ticket on DirecTV. Where is the outrage?

Why is the coax that comes into my house and hooked up to my cable box less deserving of outrage than the coax that comes into my house and connects to my modem?

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I paid for a CD once, a long time ago. I still had to pay for electricity for the stereo. (...) Irrelevant, you already pay Netflix and your ISP. A better analogy would be: I paid for a stereo, but now I have to pay for listening to it because it's a Sony, whereas I wouldn't if it was a Philips. My mother barely uses the internet at her home, but she pays the same price I do. I am a very high bandwidth user. I defini…

> Irrelevant, you already pay Netflix and your ISP. What did I pay my ISP for? I can pay for cable television. I can pay extra for HBO, or not. I can only get NFL Sunday Ticket on DirecTV. Where is the outrage? Why is the coax that comes into my house and hooked up to my cable box less deserving of outrage than the coax that comes into my house and connects to my modem?

I can pay extra for HBO

Exactly! You pay for HBO, like you already pay for Netflix. You don't pay a surcharge to be allowed to pay for HBO.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#247
post #128

It would be prudent for Wikipedia at this time to shut down service in the EU, and simply put up a banner indicating that they can't comply with XYZ regulation. Regular folks in all walks of life, and also the bureaucracy would immediately be effected. It would be a 'shock' to Europe and a powerful signal of how vital these resources are, and the real extent they are messing with them. Basically, everyone would becom…

Afaik wikipedia has no copyright or something. So somebody would create a read-only copy (less than 100GB, I guess), call it wikipedia2.com and everyone would use the copy..

Very few would figure out the clone's location, and it wouldn't be able to be updated really.

VPN's would be another solution.

But for the 99% it would be very disruptive and prove the point.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the case though.

It isnt. Being GDPR ready is not that hard. It just takes time and resources, but following the law always takes that. And leave it to businesses to complain about anything and everything.

>It just takes time and resources, but following the law always takes that.

Right, and that's why laws should be worded to minimize the time and resources required to comply with them. Laws like GDPR and Article 13 are like a nominal tax on every business. It's easy for Google and Facebook to throw a few million dollars and a few thousand engineer-hours to take care of compliance with this stuff. It's much more difficult for a 10-person startup with a fixed runway.

Saying "It just takes time and resources to deal with that," is a vacuous statement. It takes time and resources to deal with anything, no matter how large or small. The key factor is how much time? How many resources? And finally, how do the time and resource requirements compare to the time and resources you have on hand?

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#249
post #3

Policies like this make it glaringly obvious how little our government representatives around the world understand technology. It almost seems malicious, or at the very least anticompetitive. Who has access to such filtering systems already, or the resources to create one? GRPR regulations, while I absolutely realize their necessity, have made it difficult for me to expand my side business into the EU. This would jus…

What part of the GDPR makes things difficult for your side business? Every discussion I run into has people claiming this sorta thing, but my reading of the text make it fairly clear that for 90% of non-despicable use cases there's really not that much of a problem...

My specific issue was the EU representative; as the sole "employee" of my company, I will not pay a lawyer based in the EU to represent European users with privacy / data concerns. They could just contact me directly.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Irrelevant, you already pay Netflix and your ISP. What did I pay my ISP for? I can pay for cable television. I can pay extra for HBO, or not. I can only get NFL Sunday Ticket on DirecTV. Where is the outrage? Why is the coax that comes into my house and hooked up to my cable box less deserving of outrage than the coax that comes into my house and connects to my modem?

I can pay extra for HBO Exactly! You pay for HBO, like you already pay for Netflix. You don't pay a surcharge to be allowed to pay for HBO.

I can pay Comcast $30 for "basic cable". This brings every piece of equipment and signal into my home necessary to watch any programming that Comcast has to offer. There are no technical limitations, but there is some flag in Comcast's system that indicates I am only allowed to watch the channels included in basic cable. If I want, I can call them up and add the HBO package. With no technical improvement, simply an update to my customer record, I can near-instantly see this content.

I cannot purchase cable HBO without paying for basic cable. I have to pay my cable provider a premium for the privilege of paying them for HBO. I could, of course make a contract directly with HBO and stream, though that is theNetflix scenario.

I have a dumb wire coming into my house. Depending on the deal I make with my cable provider, I can have different content available by using that wire.

My internet is a dumb wire coming into my house. I can make a deal with my ISP to have certain things possible on that wire. I have a customer record. They block certain ports. E.g. I cannot run an email server using my connection. If I purchase a business package, they will update my customer record to indicate such and I get a static IP and can now send email. They are allowed to do this.

Both of the above are about dealing with a single entity. So all of these prices are bundled into one payment to one entity.

I can purchase or lease content. One way to do this is Netflix. Another would be to purchase media, e.g. a Blu-ray disc. They are mere providers of content. If I want to consume the content I need to purchase a compatible platform. If I lease content from Netflix I need basically any computer and an internet connection. If I purchase a Blu-ray, I need to buy a player of some sort.

When I purchase my Blu-ray player, there are license fees baked in there to various patent-holders for the privilege of decoding that disc. It's all bundled up into one price, though, for fees and hardware. The purchase of a Blu-ray player is a completely different transaction with a completely different entity than the creator of the disc. The hardware manufacturer is under no obligation to sell me a player, but they do. They are also under no obligation to make their hardware support multiple formats. Despite this it was very easy to find a VHS-DVD player for a while there. I don't think anyone offers Blu-ray and laserdisc.

When I lease my internet connection, that is a different transaction with my ISP, a different entity than the content provider (Netflix). The ISP is under no obligation to offer me a contract to serve all content equally to me, though that has been a common contract for a long time.

Among the actors A, B, and C, there is no obligation on C when A and B make an agreement. There is no obligation and should be none on my ISP when I make a deal with Netflix. Similarly there is no obligation between Netflix and me when I make a deal with the ISP. And similarly with the purchased content and the hardware manufacturer.

If my ISP (who, as a matter of fact IS my cable provider) charges me like my cable provider, that does not seem terribly unreasonable from a business relationship perspective.

All that said, another element of argumentation is that different content providers may subsidize their content. This is, of course, already the case. Netflix gives ISPs streaming boxes for free to optimize delivery of content. A subsidy doesn't have to give cash. I'm sure Google has similar boxes for Youtube content.

Now, what of the nightmare scenario? This is where one content provider pays an ISP to not host anyone else's content. Netflix pays Comcast to not support Youtube. This is different than Netflix paying Comcast on behalf of its customers (it already does in the form of its streaming boxes, which reduce load on Comcast's network - that is very much a direct subsidy). Netflix shouldering a cost on behalf of its customers is just a transfer, we would pay for that in the Netflix subscription (and we do! We pay Netflix. Netflix sends boxes to ISP for "free"? No we pay for those streaming boxes which by definition are a subsidy to Comcast). That's fine. Netflix paying Comcast to block a competitor's content? That's different. And if we need to deal with it, we can. Anticompetitive behavior is already something that we have legislation in place to prevent. And we can use that infrastructure in the case that one actor in the market is distorting it. As we did when Intel made exclusive deals with OEMs to block AMD out of deals. As we did when Microsoft bundled IE for free. As has happened in many other cases.

Now, all that said, I like net neutrality. Actually, I freaking love it. I want it very badly. It is a good thing for me. I benefit from it. But me wanting something is an insufficient threshold for me to support it as a policy. I would love to pay no taxes for instance. I would be better off if most people were not allowed to drive (so long as I get to be one of the lucky few). I would be better off if a lot of things happened, and vanishingly few of those things are good policy. Now, before the strawman cometh, my argument is this:

"I want" or "I receive a specific benefit" is a poor justification on its own for a policy. Similarly "Two of us want" or "two of us receive a specific benefit" is a bad justification. This holds for very large N (certainly more than half of the population - see the case of 51% enslaving 49%).

I am not saying that net neutrality is the same as me paying no taxes, or the other items I mentioned.

My argument is this:

Agreements between party A and party B should not be expected to impose arbitrary obligations on party C. Net neutrality says exactly that: "Because I paid Netflix for a service, Comcast is required to enter into a contract with me to deliver that network traffic to my home"

I would be mighty miffed if Comcast forbade me from watching Netflix. Still doesn't mean that I have the right to impose that obligation upon them.

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