Live data from Hacker News

USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

tamino.wordpress.com

241–247 of 247 posts

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the Pascal's wager argument for action on Climate change (which is that if there is even 1% chance of climate change being real then why not act on it since the downside of acting is nothing ), but the question is, what if climate change is NOT man-made? If there is even 1% chance that climate change is a naturally occurring phenomenon then all our efforts to 'stop' greenhouse gas emissions is not going to giv…

The following article might be of help: https://friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/Arrhenius%2019... It was published in 1906... I.e the knowledge that CO2 causes warming which causes water vapor that in turn causes more warning is more than 100 years old!

Thanks, but how does it relate to my argument?

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are thought experiments empirical?

Nope

So then, thought experiments can be valuable aids to scientific understanding, but they can't establish the truth or falsehood of any empirical claim. The two statements, "I have faith that God exists," and "carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas" are not only not equivalent, they are not comparable.

But, even setting aside issues of validity, your premise is that there is a not-inconsiderable chance that global warming is not caused by humans, and this premise may be rejected. Error is inherent to measurement, but that does not mean that all statements are equally likely. You don't get to just say, "Assume that the error bars are convenient for my argument"; that's not how empiricism works. AGW is predicated on optics and thermodynamics, and saying that AGW is not true is equivalent to saying that there is a problem with our understanding of those topics. That's the sort of claim where you should really be very specific and have strong evidence, but really, if you're arguing with thermodynamics, you're going to have a bad time.

If you really want to offer a skeptical argument, it must be an empirical argument. In order to make a plausible empirical argument, you need to take into account all observations relating to that phenomenon. This can't be done without learning the science. There are empirical avenues which could lead to the invalidation of AGW (it was considered disproved for decades, after all), but thought experiments are not empirical.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because their stupidity is going to kill us all. I'm very vitriolic against people that are trying to kill me and my family, I can't help it.

Are you actually at risk for being killed? A bit hyperbolic wouldn’t you say?

I live in California, not that hard for me to be killed by global warming. Our water is becoming scarcer, fires more violent. Combination of heat waves and blackouts are notorious for killing the elderly and children (and I have both parents AND a small kid).

The real question is why aren't you more worried? I wonder where your money comes from and where you live.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#245
post #168

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way. There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Ev…

1. Because its gaining traction, its not something that is becoming less of an issue over time, and people in power are promoting it for their own vile ends. 2. No, treating people poorly who continually spread misinformation and lies does not make you bad or worse than them, this is a silly misrepresentation that would almost arise to this question fitting classic sealioning. 3. There is no expectation to win over h…

> treating people poorly who continually spread misinformation and lies does not make you bad or worse than them

So, from their perspective, they should be able to treat you poorly. See how behaving badly towards people you disagree with goes both ways?

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#246

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way. There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Ev…

I think this is a good point in general. I often find myself sympathizing with those who are otherwise wrong simply because of the tone of the criticism.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#247
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authority here is insurmountably large and the data is readably accessible. It's like a blind person claiming the sky isn't blue despite the determination of every sighted person. There isn't even a single point of authority here. The determination is made by climate scientists, biologists, ecologists, etc... across multiple independent governments, allies and enemies alike. Argument from authority is meant to av…

But for other consensuses, for example evolution, any individual person can readily explain how it works to a anyone else. Then it is up to the person hearing the model to accept it as fact, and maybe they make some logical error rejecting it. But until you explain to them the model, I don't think you should have any expectation that they should believe you. It sounds like no one responding to me actually understands…

> But for other consensuses, for example evolution, any individual person can readily explain how it works to a anyone else.

The greenhouse gas hypothesis is readily explainable to elementary school children. Explaining the actual mechanisms is, obviously, far more complicated.

But the same is true for evolution. Origin of the Species pre-dated the discovery of DNA by nearly 100 years. Even a not particularly bright Biology undergraduate has a better understanding of evolution than a hypothetical re-animated Darwin.

A thorough explanation of our best knowledge about evolution requires a graduate-level course in genetics (and a few other things). A thorough explanation of our best knowledge about climate science requires a graduate-level course in mathematical modeling (and a few other things).

> It sounds like no one responding to me actually understands how climate models work. How do they work?

I've actually implemented toy versions of some of these models so that I could have a better understanding of the relationship between computer models and raw data. I have a graduate-level understanding of ODEs, PDEs, and numerical analysis, but was still in pretty far over my head.

My take-away form that experience: unless you have the time to devote to getting (the equivalent of) a PhD in climate science, you likely don't understand these models well enough to comment on them.

So I actually do think it's just objectively true that:

> Only specialists are qualified to even enter the debate.

Which, as you note, is a serious problem. But the way I see it, each citizen has three options:

1. Get a Ph.D. in climate science.

2. Superficially engage with climate science.

3a. Trust that people who spend a lot of time studying these probably have well-informed opinions (an appeal to an appropriate authority).

3b. Trust some other authority (e.g., the PR experts working for conservative senators and fossil fuel companies, who are admittedly better communicators).

Obviously, option 1 is ideal.

Option 2 isn't necessarily better than Option 3a. How do you know what you don't know? How do you know when you come to a terrible conclusion based upon a misinterpretation of data?

Let's take me as an example. When experimenting with these models, I'd often find surprising results. But then I'd ask a climate science friend only to find that I had made some subtle but in fact ridiculous mistake. And they'd be able to explain to me what that mistake was, because I have lots of experience with ODEs/PDEs and enough experience reading scientific literature that I could read the papers/datasets that used to justify their assertion that I had chosen an unrealistic value for some parameter or another. And enough experience with statistical modeling that I could apply some common "validation" tricks and notice that I could reproduce some of the critiques of my mistakes.

How do you do that if you don't have a Ph.D.-level understanding of dynamical systems, plenty of programming experience, AND a climate science Ph.D. friend? Not to mention no family and plenty of free time...

That leaves Options 3 -- both appeals to authority. However, not all appeals to authority are equally fallacious. Listening to a quack pot cult leader and listening to a trained nurse are both appeals to authority; however, only a fool would believe these are equally inadvisable.

If you don't have the time to seriously engage with modern science, is trusting your own judgment really more advisable than listening to experts? I don't think the answer is quite as clear cut as you make it out to be. When I see arguments like yours, that Emerson quote always comes to mind: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

I.e., just because you avoided a "logical fallacy" doesn't mean that your mode of reasoning is more likely to result in Truth. See also: the millions of "proofs" that Sqrt[2] is rational. On this question, the person who listens to the blind authority of the mathematician has a strictly better route to truth than the person who believes their own mistaken reasoning despite (or, more typically, to spite) expert testimony.

I submit the same is even more likely to be true for more complicated issues, such as climate science or evolution.

Post reply on HN