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USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

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Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#31

Post by mikeash »

andrepd wrote: post #29
mikeash wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clean water is fairly distinct from climate change. Greenhouse gasses are mostly harmless aside from their warming effect, and the stuff that makes air and water unhealthy doesn’t warm the planet. Sometimes these two things go together, such as when replacing coal power plants with renewables. But sometimes they’re in opposition. For example, the Volkswagen emissions scandal was that they increased particulate pollut…

>For example, the Volkswagen emissions scandal was that they increased particulate pollution in order to decrease greenhouse gas emissions. ? The scandal was that they did it in testing only, so it passed the standards and they could turn it up in normal use.

During pollution testing, the cars sacrificed fuel economy for better emissions. During normal driving, they polluted more but burned less fuel. Drivers notice fuel consumption but not pollution, so this made everyone happy until it was discovered.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#32

Post by freedomben »

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way.

There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Even when they are being assholes (which many are), it is an act of immaturity to lower yourself to that level.

How do you expect to win over hearts and minds when you approach people like that? The worst thing you can do when trying to convince someone of your opinion is offend them by stereotyping, generalizing, and straw-manning their position. How do you feel when people do this to you? Do you find yourself intellectually engaging with them, thinking that they might have some good points?

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#33

Post by craftyguy »

rdtsc wrote: post #19
craftyguy wrote: post #2

Great. More 'ammo' for climate change deniers to take out of context and spread around. Most folks would not bother with trying to understand the points this article is making when presented with the 'no change here' graph. HN readers are not 'most folks' so this type of data manipulation is obvious and wrong to many here.

Isn't this doing the opposite by showing how one can play tricks with various time windows and such. The exact kind of stuff deniers would do to "prove" their point.

Right, my point being that most folks would not bother with trying to understand the points this article is making, and instead take the graph showing 'nothing to see here' and run with it.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#34

Post by seiferteric »

mmastrac wrote: post #3
craftyguy wrote: post #2

Great. More 'ammo' for climate change deniers to take out of context and spread around. Most folks would not bother with trying to understand the points this article is making when presented with the 'no change here' graph. HN readers are not 'most folks' so this type of data manipulation is obvious and wrong to many here.

I wouldn't say that - he's basically reverse engineered the graph that a climate change denier is already using for evidence and shown how it's basically cherry-picked BS. Clearly the denialists are already well-versed with this particular approach.

I don't even believe that people that produce such graphs are real deniers. I think there is a lot of money to be made by for people like this and they are in the "climate denier industry". Someone going out of their way to produce a graph like that must know what they are doing and have ulterior motives.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#35

Post by [deleted] »

freedomben wrote: post #32

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way. There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Ev…

[deleted]

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#36

Post by hhw »

guessthejuice wrote: post #28
oh_sigh wrote: post #6

What part do climate change deniers deny? Is it that the mean global temperature is going up, or the idea that it is going up because of human activities? I thought it was the latter.

> What part do climate change deniers deny? It's two fold issue. People question the level to which human activity contributes to climate and they question the remedy to it. Obviously climate change has always happened. It happened before human existence, climate change occurred throughout human history and climate change will happen after humans aren't around. Nobody is denying climate change. Climate change denier…

The rate of increase far exceeds what could be accounted for by the natural cycle, so there's no legitimate question for anyone both informed and intellectually honest about the subject about whether climate change is anthropogenic.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#37

Post by IlGrigiore »

freedomben wrote: post #32

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way. There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Ev…

Since you do not like the term "climate deniers", what's your proposal for an appropriate and respectful term or definition to aggregate the people that believe that climate change is not happening?

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#38

Post by luckydata »

freedomben wrote: post #32

Honest question: Why such vitriol against "climate deniers?" The term "climate denier" is loading with negative connotation just on it's face, and it's rarely used in isolation in an otherwise respectful way. There will always be people that disagree with you about something. Some are honest, some are not. Why be an asshole and treat people poorly and disrespectfully? That makes you as bad or worse than them IMHO. Ev…

Because their stupidity is going to kill us all. I'm very vitriolic against people that are trying to kill me and my family, I can't help it.

Re: USA Temperature: can I sucker you?

#40

Post by prolikewh0a »

techsupporter wrote: post #18

> We can completely ignore the fact that over the years the average location of all the contributing stations has moved slightly northward to colder territory[.] Woah, that's not something I'd considered. Are weather stations that contribute to NOAA operated by the volunteer public, kind of like Weather Underground? Either way, that's pretty interesting that there's a distinct northward migration in at least one "dem…

>Are weather stations that contribute to NOAA operated by the volunteer public, kind of like Weather Underground?

This would provide extremely poor data. A lot of people on Wunderground are running ~$100 Chinese weather stations that don't have proper radiation shielding, dubious barometers, and poor anemometers. While they're perfectly fine for hobbyists and accurate to some degree, a volunteer network for climate data would give non-scientific results.

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