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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#241

Post by [deleted] »

nixpulvis wrote: post #172
wildmusings wrote: post #137

The bar for infringing on people's freedom should be high. Laws should exit only to protect human interests. That can include things like preserving biodiversity. But to use the power of the state against people for the sole purpose of protecting animal interests is unjustified in my opinion. I believe we have a moral duty to treat animals well, and certainly to avoid causing needless suffering. But not all moral dut…

So what, as long as humans win it's OK? Boy that sounds like a shitty philosophy, but we might quickly get into an argument over the semantics of "win".

[deleted]

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#242

Post by ethbro »

wallace_f wrote: post #132
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything Radiolab spin-off More Perfect recently discussed the “cosmetic” presence of a paralytic drug in lethal injection concoctions. I can’t help but see a parallel.

That's terrifying. At least for the lobster, we're not really sure how they interpret pain. They don't have a brain in the same way the humans do. As a vegetarian, I personally would go back to meat if I just knew my meal had a good life and did not suffer needlessly in order for me to eat it. But for the prisoner, this seems like the worst combination: internalized suffering and externalized indifference... So minim…

> internalized suffering and externalized indifference

Didn't we just describe the entire aim of the US prison system?

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#244

Post by lawl »

badestrand wrote: post #220
wallace_f wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept is about 'what constitutes legitimate authority?' After all, consider your argument: >'we already have laws about which people can get married. This is hardly an egregious extension of that power. The law is very plainly there to protect children.' What you're advocating by disavowing the above, yet allowing the topic is to say you: "agree with authority when it happens to agree with my moral compass." Sa…

You might consider that Switzerland is probably the most democratic country on earth and "legitimate authority" quite directly means "the will of the people". If it wouldn't, they could easily change it as everybody can submit a law change suggestion (sorry, I don't know the correct term) and with enough inital support everyone can vote on the issue. They vote on far-ranging things several times a year, there can be…

> If it wouldn't, they could easily change it as everybody can submit a law change suggestion (sorry, I don't know the correct term)

Referendum to kill an existing law, popular initiative to propose a new one.

They use different tricks when they're extending their power. This is definitely not one of them.

Laws they suspect could be overturned by voters they create 2 simular but separate ones shortly after each other, so people get tired of fighting it etc.

It definitely doesn't involve guinea pigs.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#245

Post by wolco »

wallace_f wrote: post #132
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything Radiolab spin-off More Perfect recently discussed the “cosmetic” presence of a paralytic drug in lethal injection concoctions. I can’t help but see a parallel.

That's terrifying. At least for the lobster, we're not really sure how they interpret pain. They don't have a brain in the same way the humans do. As a vegetarian, I personally would go back to meat if I just knew my meal had a good life and did not suffer needlessly in order for me to eat it. But for the prisoner, this seems like the worst combination: internalized suffering and externalized indifference... So minim…

What do you make of the recent science on plants ability to feel and sense?

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#246

Post by bufferout »

wildmusings wrote: post #240
bufferout wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not holding much water to be honest. Pick one: a) animals are incapable of suffering b) we shouldn't care if animals suffer c) we should care and pass laws

My argument is the option you're omitting: d) animals suffer, we should care, but we should not pass laws when their sole purpose is to prevent that suffering. There is more to a society that what it compels at gunpoint. We can abhor behavior without proscribing it by law.

What is law if not the ability to arrest controversy?

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#247

Post by moz23 »

Bizarro wrote: post #167

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

Feel free to go to Switzerland and change the law if you think so. You are perfectly free to try and get the consitution changed, as long as you can convince 100'000 citizens to agree with you.

As it stands: yes, the laws do work. It's not common for private households to be inspected, but farms do get inspected, and eventually shut down for repeatedly flouting such laws. If someone were to report you (i.e. private household) for similar violations you would likely get a police+vet visit and your pets would be confiscated (and you would carry the costs of that, in addition to being fined). Do it often enough and there would eventually be a criminal case.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#248

Post by csomar »

wallace_f wrote: post #135
heinrichf wrote: post #9

It's also illegal to own a single guinea pig or parrot (because they are prone to loneliness): https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/guinea-pig-swi...

I am a vegetarian, but I'm more troubled by these totalitarian laws. Yes, I know they 'are just helping animals,' but throughout history, too often tyrants strip your liberties in the name of of moral righteousness.

It only strip your liberties if you think you have full rights over the animals, and they have none.

One can argue that humans are animals. Animals are protected by law and thus you should not harm any animal being human or from other species.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#249

Post by nielsole »

bobnarizes wrote: post #243

- The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Mahatma Gandhi

https://animalsmattertogod.com/2013/09/13/mahatma-gandhi-hoa... A rather lengthy article that doesn't find any references to a primary source.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#250

Post by gnulinux »

chr1 wrote: post #110
mod wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." I certainly wouldn't do it for "a game." I don't think I would do it for any amount of money or other benefit, either. What you're proposing is (seemingly) no benefit beyond the experience of being tortured--which coincidentally you are going you erase when you delete the mental illness. Anyway, you're wrong, nobody would sign up for that. Peo…

> I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." Even if it was to unlock a new level in a game, or to remove a tooth? :) More seriously though seems like i didn't manage to express what i wanted to say in my comment. My point was that people are afraid of torture, and many other things (like roller coasters) because there's a large chance to die in the end. And without that chance the who…

> My point was that people are afraid of torture, and many other things (like roller coasters) because there's a large chance to die in the end. And without that chance the whole thing is just some neurons being active, and is not a big deal.

There are people afraid of bugs, dogs, cats, birds, balls etc... There are also people who experience anxiety for unknown reasons due to anxiety disorder. Moreover, there is no, quoting you, "large chance to die in the end" in roller coasters. I don't think any part of your argument makes sense, sorry.

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