In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster • Hacker News Board

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#101

Post by grogenaut » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:50 PM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #71

miles wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people It doesn't have to be; in fact, humans, animals, and the planet would be much better off in many ways were we to transition to plant-based diets: Go vegan, save the planet https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/opinions/go-vegan-save-the-pl... Five things would happen if everyone stopped eating meat http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/five-things-wou…

I‘m not convinced that killing plants is creating less suffering than killing simple animals like shrimps or insects for example. Listen to the latest radiolab episode for example. Given their capabilities I find it reasonable to assume that the level of consciousness is about the same (which includes the very likely possibility of them being not conscious at all). Point is, if you want to just reduce suffering while…

I think you got the setup of that radio lab episode and not the later points. The points was that: a) plants are a lot cooler than you think b) looking at things from a non-standard position can lead to new insights even if that position might be wrong c) anthropomorphizing causes people to assign values to them that may or may not exist regardless of other evidence.

The turn was after hooking you on all of the feelings by anthropomorphizing the plants more to you, then went back to cold logical examination that there is no structure in the plant for pain or learning and literally pointed out the manipulation they did. Radiolab does this a lot, manipulates the listener to get you meta insight into yourself.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#102

Post by 111_1_111 » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:51 PM UTC

miles wrote: post #19

tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to do with the fact that lobsters (according to Wallace) have decentralized nervous systems consisting of ganglia wired in series, so that slicing through one of them might not disable the creature's nociception upon being immersed in boiling water. You might just be keeping it from flailing around, paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything. Dave Arnold, another favorite writ…

> Dave Arnold, another favorite writer of mine, has a solution to this problem: clove oil anesthetizes lobsters (and fish). Clove oil, knife through the head, then boil. Or, you know, don’t kill them. Not sure why this idea is still considered extreme. Why harm fellow creatures when it is simply unnecessary? As Tolstoy wrote[1], "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats me…

I will be happier eating meat than I will eating meat-substitutes. Am I supposed to sacrifice my own happiness just so that lobsters can live longer?

Since I'm already sacrificing my happiness for the comfort of lobsters, why not go all out and build them little lobster mansions where we serve them sautéed seaweed with a hand-made orange remoulade glaze every night for dinner? (Can't serve them their preferred meal of crab because that would be immoral).

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#103

Post by bootlooped » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:51 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #37

always_good wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how your argument exists alongside the fact that we farm the animals that we eat. The chicken that you buy at the grocer isn't one we swiped away just as a wolf was about it eat it. The chicken was grown indoors in a factory, likely hadn't even seen the light of day. Even a wolf-eaten wild chicken gets that courtesy.

The argument I have is mostly applicable to fisheries (i.e. this discussion re: lobsters); it doesn't have much to say about farming. Lobsters, like much of our seafood, are just plucked up out of the ocean. If we don't eat them, an otter or something does.

Whether they suffer more or less when caught vs killed naturally in the ocean, I don't know, but there are other issues with fishing in the ocean, mainly that it is unsustainable.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ocean-fish-number...

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#104

Post by bshacklett » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:58 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #91

tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to do with the fact that lobsters (according to Wallace) have decentralized nervous systems consisting of ganglia wired in series, so that slicing through one of them might not disable the creature's nociception upon being immersed in boiling water. You might just be keeping it from flailing around, paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything. Dave Arnold, another favorite writ…

> (Myself, I'm kind of grossed out by shellfish). Ah, and I thought I was the only one. They look too damn similar to cockroaches!

There's a lot more similarity than just the looks. They're both arthropods.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#105

Post by tempestn » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 12:02 AM UTC

mod wrote: post #94

chr1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." I certainly wouldn't do it for "a game." I don't think I would do it for any amount of money or other benefit, either. What you're proposing is (seemingly) no benefit beyond the experience of being tortured--which coincidentally you are going you erase when you delete the mental illness. Anyway, you're wrong, nobody would sign up for that. Peo…

Yeah, that part didn't make sense. I would agree with the argument that a day of torture with no lasting effects would be preferable to death though.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#106

Post by bootlooped » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 12:03 AM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #82

miles wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dave Arnold, another favorite writer of mine, has a solution to this problem: clove oil anesthetizes lobsters (and fish). Clove oil, knife through the head, then boil. Or, you know, don’t kill them. Not sure why this idea is still considered extreme. Why harm fellow creatures when it is simply unnecessary? As Tolstoy wrote[1], "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats me…

Agriculture pretty much kills animals too. Pesticides kill animals, removing their habitats to replace them with farmed fields kills animals. I don't think there currently is a sustainable way to live without killing animals. Humanity is not going to live off pure gathering.

Most farm animals in the US are fed by commercial agriculture. Eating meat multiplies the amount of plant agriculture required by a significant factor (dependent on the animal).

Often I see the concept you pointed out presented in a way that implies meat has separate and distinct negative externalities from plants, and that it's roughly equivalent whether you choose set of negatives A or set of negatives B. In reality one is a superset of the other.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#107

Post by bshacklett » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 12:06 AM UTC

fmihaila wrote: post #8

nickjj wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but dignity is usually related to respect and honor. When was the last time you killed and ate something out of respect? They should change that phrase to "reduce cruelty towards animals" and then it's fine. Say it as it is basically.

> Yes but dignity is usually related to respect and honor. When was the last time you killed and ate something out of respect? I don't kill what I eat, but most communities and cultures where this is a regular occurrence have long traditions of respecting the animals being sacrificed. One form of respect is to minimize the animal's suffering (both when it's raised and when it's killed), another is to use all parts of…

Thanks for sharing this.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#108

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 12:08 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #4

It's at this point you'd probably want to go read David Foster Wallace's essay "Consider The Lobster", an assignment he took from (I shit you not) Gourmet Magazine, which begins with a sort of Illinois Country Fair style travelogue from the Maine Lobster Festival and "ends", if you can call the back 2/3rds of an essay "ending", in a discussion of the meaning of pain and its applicability to the specific nervous syste…

[deleted]

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#109

Post by TomMarius » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 12:09 AM UTC

travisjungroth wrote: post #95

nezzle wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We clearly eat far more meat than we need and produce/harvest meat in ways that create unnecessary damage and suffering. However, not everyone is like you. Some people develop deficiencies when they exclude meat from their diet. I have witnessed an ex-vegan health/nutritional professional advise a vegetarian to start eating some meat due to chronic health issues and lab-tested nutritional deficiencies. It was an hard…

Ok, that person couldn't live and be healthy without meat, so the quote doesn't apply to them. Most people can. > I'm glad it works for you right now while providing a sense of moral superiority, but not everyone is the same. Come on.

> Most people can.

Any sources? Most of the professionals seem to think otherwise.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#110

Post by chr1 » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 12:10 AM UTC

mod wrote: post #94

chr1 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." I certainly wouldn't do it for "a game." I don't think I would do it for any amount of money or other benefit, either. What you're proposing is (seemingly) no benefit beyond the experience of being tortured--which coincidentally you are going you erase when you delete the mental illness. Anyway, you're wrong, nobody would sign up for that. Peo…

> I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture."

Even if it was to unlock a new level in a game, or to remove a tooth? :)

More seriously though seems like i didn't manage to express what i wanted to say in my comment.

My point was that people are afraid of torture, and many other things (like roller coasters) because there's a large chance to die in the end. And without that chance the whole thing is just some neurons being active, and is not a big deal.

Your point about needing to erase all memory of the experience to not get mental illness is very interesting. I'd expect the brain to be more stable, but we don't know enough about the brain to say for sure.