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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#131

Post by crooked-v »

chr1 wrote: post #110
mod wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." I certainly wouldn't do it for "a game." I don't think I would do it for any amount of money or other benefit, either. What you're proposing is (seemingly) no benefit beyond the experience of being tortured--which coincidentally you are going you erase when you delete the mental illness. Anyway, you're wrong, nobody would sign up for that. Peo…

> I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." Even if it was to unlock a new level in a game, or to remove a tooth? :) More seriously though seems like i didn't manage to express what i wanted to say in my comment. My point was that people are afraid of torture, and many other things (like roller coasters) because there's a large chance to die in the end. And without that chance the who…

> or to remove a tooth?

The point of tooth removal in dentistry is to end pain, not to cause it.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#132

Post by wallace_f »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #129
tptacek wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to do with the fact that lobsters (according to Wallace) have decentralized nervous systems consisting of ganglia wired in series, so that slicing through one of them might not disable the creature's nociception upon being immersed in boiling water. You might just be keeping it from flailing around, paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything. Dave Arnold, another favorite writ…

> paralyzed but still "aware" in whatever sense a lobster is aware of anything Radiolab spin-off More Perfect recently discussed the “cosmetic” presence of a paralytic drug in lethal injection concoctions. I can’t help but see a parallel.

That's terrifying.

At least for the lobster, we're not really sure how they interpret pain. They don't have a brain in the same way the humans do. As a vegetarian, I personally would go back to meat if I just knew my meal had a good life and did not suffer needlessly in order for me to eat it. But for the prisoner, this seems like the worst combination: internalized suffering and externalized indifference... So minimize the the deturrence to crime while maximizing the suffering in society. Isn't this the opposite of how it should be?

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#133

Post by wallace_f »

darkerside wrote: post #58
zaroth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fairly difficult not to kill them, you know, when you plan to eat them. If your Tolstoy quote is accurate, it seems fairly sloppy reasoning to me. Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people. Calling sustenance “appetite” is a rhetorical flourish which undermines the argument. I think what would be immoral is telling billions of people they can’t eat meat. There are many ways one co…

> beneath us on the food chain This sounds... tautological. We can morally eat whatever we can eat? Does that include gorilla meat? Weaker humans?

The OP provides no justification, so in his mind, yes. And when AI develops, or a new race of genetically engineered humans, they can eat us, too. But I'm sure the OP wasn't thinking about being boiled alive when he made his comment.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#134

Post by maxxxxx »

nickjj wrote: post #2

"...dipping it into salt water and then thrusting a knife into its brain." So for a few seconds it will think it's being released back into its natural habitat and then seconds later its brains are dripping down some chef's knife. The article talks about "animal dignity", but how is that giving them any form of dignity? They are still being killed unnaturally. NOTE: I'm not some animal rights person and I do eat meat…

"I do eat meat without thinking, and no I've never seen the inside of a slaughter house"

You should go. It may start you thinking.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#135

Post by wallace_f »

heinrichf wrote: post #9

It's also illegal to own a single guinea pig or parrot (because they are prone to loneliness): https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/guinea-pig-swi...

I am a vegetarian, but I'm more troubled by these totalitarian laws. Yes, I know they 'are just helping animals,' but throughout history, too often tyrants strip your liberties in the name of of moral righteousness.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#136

Post by majormajor »

chr1 wrote: post #41
tptacek wrote: post #4

It's at this point you'd probably want to go read David Foster Wallace's essay "Consider The Lobster", an assignment he took from (I shit you not) Gourmet Magazine, which begins with a sort of Illinois Country Fair style travelogue from the Maine Lobster Festival and "ends", if you can call the back 2/3rds of an essay "ending", in a discussion of the meaning of pain and its applicability to the specific nervous syste…

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

Hell no.

Accidentally catching my hand on a table saw was bad enough, thank you very much. I knew very well I wouldn't die or suffer permanent damage and it still sucked like hell.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#137

Post by wildmusings »

The bar for infringing on people's freedom should be high. Laws should exit only to protect human interests. That can include things like preserving biodiversity. But to use the power of the state against people for the sole purpose of protecting animal interests is unjustified in my opinion.

I believe we have a moral duty to treat animals well, and certainly to avoid causing needless suffering. But not all moral duties justify state compulsion.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#138

Post by a_cactus »

wildmusings wrote: post #137

The bar for infringing on people's freedom should be high. Laws should exit only to protect human interests. That can include things like preserving biodiversity. But to use the power of the state against people for the sole purpose of protecting animal interests is unjustified in my opinion. I believe we have a moral duty to treat animals well, and certainly to avoid causing needless suffering. But not all moral dut…

Do you disagree with most animal cruelty laws then? What about dog or cock fighting?

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#139

Post by kranner »

wallace_f wrote: post #135
heinrichf wrote: post #9

It's also illegal to own a single guinea pig or parrot (because they are prone to loneliness): https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/guinea-pig-swi...

I am a vegetarian, but I'm more troubled by these totalitarian laws. Yes, I know they 'are just helping animals,' but throughout history, too often tyrants strip your liberties in the name of of moral righteousness.

In what way does it strip one's liberties to be required to keep at least two guinea pigs if one must keep them?

The "liberty" to keep exactly one guinea pig: that is just silly.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#140

Post by dsfyu404ed »

blattimwind wrote: post #118
chr1 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not volunteer for it alone, but try it as a part of a bigger package. Kind of like a more realistic version of a horror movie/game. Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? Do you think it is better to die, instead of enduring suffering and then getting to live some more?

My gut feeling is that you do very little work with your hands, because your pain-o-meter seems to have drifted in a very unrealistic direction.

I agree. I'd do a heck of a lot more unsafe shit if I knew I could survive it without permanent damage. It's the permanent damage that keeps me from doing flagrantly unsafe stuff, not the pain. You wind up causing yourself pain in all sorts of avoidable but not terribly unsafe ways.
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