Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#241

Post by fsloth » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 5:34 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #189

fsloth wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"games with educational value" Unfortunately that's a near non-sequitur. For example a "math game" may actually be a crappy button smashing experience that's made to look "educational" in the store. Etc.

You know what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game. No one is getting fooled by that. As for good games with educational value, I'd point to obvious examples like Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics), Minecraft (can make kids learn to program), Zachtronics games like SpaceChem or Shenzhen…

"...what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game."

Yeah, basically anything in that category except perhaps for rote memorization of multiplication tables is better done by a human teacher and static quality educational materials.

"Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics),"

With a) MSc in physics b) two kids in school c) over 700 hours spent personally in Kerbal I disagree. It does not really teach math and claiming it does is delusional. However, it does give a pretty intuitive introduction into orbital dynamics. It's a fun game. And there's nothing wrong in that category! Fun and games are as important as learning, but these two categories are complementary. Pretending one is the other does not really help anyone.

It's confounding to confuse the two as a parent who has to consider how the kids spend their time (i.e how screen time is rationed). If my kids want to play Kerbal, it's rationed from the "digital games" category and not "educational". For me "educational and character building" category includes stuff like 3D modeling, playing and mixing music, creating stop motion animation, etc. The latter they can do as much as they like.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#242

Post by rock_hard » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:03 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #218

rock_hard wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on age...handing a 4 year old a laptop is probably not feasible

They make desktop computers, they make rugged laptops, or you can just teach your kid not to manhandle a normal laptop.

Do you even parent?

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#243

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #241

TeMPOraL wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game. No one is getting fooled by that. As for good games with educational value, I'd point to obvious examples like Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics), Minecraft (can make kids learn to program), Zachtronics games like SpaceChem or Shenzhen…

"...what's worse than what you describe? Educational games, i.e. schoolwork disguised (usually poorly) as a video game." Yeah, basically anything in that category except perhaps for rote memorization of multiplication tables is better done by a human teacher and static quality educational materials. "Kerbal Space Program (makes 12 years old learn the math behind rocketry and orbital dynamics)," With a) MSc in physics…

I wrote "makes 12 years old learn the math" not to imply KSP teaches math by itself, but to observe that it motivates kids to go and learn the math on their own, and to enjoy it.

If you take a look at the community around KSP, you'll find plenty of kids learning math and physics to better understand what their spacecrafts are doing and how to make better ones.

Reminds me of how I learned trigonometry myself - I hated it at school, but learned it immediately - along with basic matrix/vector linear algebra - once I needed it to rotate stuff in a game I was writing.

This brings me to my core issue with edutainment - fake problems. Bite-sized issues designed to "teach" a kid a particular concept, which can be immediately recognized for what they are - school after school. Fake problems are not fun. Meaningful problems - those working within the context of a game world that stands on its own, like "wtf is ∆v, how does it work and how do I ballpark the amount of it in my rocket" - those are fun and motivating.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#244

Post by thirdsun » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:54 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #102

tlrobinson wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have kids so I haven't looked into it, but I assumed there would be more games with educational value on iOS than Nintendo. Is curating your kid's apps to only allow such games an option?

What's the point though? The app store is 99% low quality garbage. Sure, you can spend your time and effort searching out the 4-5 high quality gems that may exist and configuring the ipad but it's 10x easier just to buy a Nintendo game and call it a day. Nintendo's first party games are almost always very fun, always high quality, ad free, and always(?) kid friendly. When you buy, for example, a Zelda, Mario, or Kirb…

You're exaggerating. Of course there's a lot of garbage and Apple could do a better job of curating and surfacing the highlights, though their recent app store redesign is a step in the right direction. However it's easy to find countless high quality, worthwhile and affordable games - from platform exclusives and indie hits to popular titles like Civ VI, 80 Days or The Witness.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#245

Post by noobermin » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 10:54 AM UTC

double0jimb0 wrote: post #201

gpmcadam wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for smartphone usage having any impact on neck or muscle strain, versus non-smartphone usage, and why it would disproportionately affect millennials?

That is an easy one to answer: baby boomers, gen-x, and anyone over ~33 years old as of now... they didn't have cell phones or tablets growing up. But I think what you are getting at is you want data supporting the emergence of a correlation in this new, younger cohort. I'd argue that a close proxy is the introduction of the PC workstation in the 70's and 80's and the "ergonomics" industry that resulted. Seems pretty…

Dear God, that [0] link is horrendous. I might be biased because I come from a harder science, but every metric they measure overlap in the stddev within the control and the test group. The best is peak expiratory flow (ie., peak breath flow), but even those overlap from the min of one to the max of the other. I probably doesn't help that there are 25 subjects per group.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#246

Post by Pigo » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 2:13 PM UTC

parasubvert wrote: post #237

Pigo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bought the switch for my 6 year old son for Christmas, his first console, because it was geared for younger kids and had these controls. Unfortunately it seems most of the games are really still aimed at 10+, so I've had to start playing the games with him.

My 7 year old finished Zelda several times without a lot of help (mostly early on we helped to show how to cook, etc) ... I do recommend Super Mario odyssey or Lego City though - may be more age appropriate.

Odyssey is what we just started playing, the two player is perfect because he can just control the hat, and we work together. He's just never played many video games before, apart from some Roblox. Lego is what I probably should have gotten. I bought the Pokemon game because he liked the fighting, but there's way more to it than I thought.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#247

Post by parasubvert » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

Pigo wrote: post #246

parasubvert wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 7 year old finished Zelda several times without a lot of help (mostly early on we helped to show how to cook, etc) ... I do recommend Super Mario odyssey or Lego City though - may be more age appropriate.

Odyssey is what we just started playing, the two player is perfect because he can just control the hat, and we work together. He's just never played many video games before, apart from some Roblox. Lego is what I probably should have gotten. I bought the Pokemon game because he liked the fighting, but there's way more to it than I thought.

The Pokémon game is fun but yes, I’ve heard a lot of screaming over it :)

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#248

Post by thomastjeffery » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #108

thomastjeffery wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If using a computer is addictive, what is the response? I am concerned with any action that takes a child's privacy or liberty from them. I haven't heard a proposed solution that does neither, and most do both. Someone with the absolute best intentions it's likely to take seriously harmful actions when privacy and liberty are disrespected.

My god, what if someone forced a child to eat their vegetables? Or read a book? Or clean their room?? What if someone said a kid can't go to their friend's late night unchaperoned party?? Real answer: If using a computer is addictive, then parents and schools will manage kids' use of computers (most already do), and arm kids with that knowledge and help them learn to manage it themselves as they get older. Sending a…

I understand where you are coming from, and don't disagree with you, but we aren't just talking about parents teaching their children.

It's perfectly reasonable for a parent to decide their child should spend time away from computers.

It's also very easy to take this reaction too far. Deciding what a child should do with a computer, or even that a child should not spend more than 10-20min. at a time using a computer seems reasonable, or even necessary to a lot of parents. Such a situation would have been extremely detrimental to my childhood.

It's easy to overcompensate for things like this, just like it is easy to overcompensate for safety. Parents who know better are likely to ignore studies like this, but others will definitely use these studies to excuse their own draconian censorship, privacy violation, etc.

> This is also why sex ed is important, BTW.

Correct thoughtful sex ed is important. Teaching children to stay away from or fear their sexuality is detrimental, yet it is still common practice. It would be nice to be able to expect a reasonable reaction from everyone, but the fact is that we simply can't.

I think the focus of studies like this misses the mark. Children need variety, so it's important for parents to push them out the door from time to time. Unfortunately, a lot of parents find it more important to schedule every moment of their child's life, make every decision for their child, or be somewhere in between. That attitude leads them to awful things like censorship, and privacy intrusion.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#249

Post by thomastjeffery » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #94

thomastjeffery wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If using a computer is addictive, what is the response? I am concerned with any action that takes a child's privacy or liberty from them. I haven't heard a proposed solution that does neither, and most do both. Someone with the absolute best intentions it's likely to take seriously harmful actions when privacy and liberty are disrespected.

Are you worried about parents, or governments?

Both, but mostly the latter.

I know a lot of parents who are over-concerned with their child's "safety". That extends to reading through teenager's texts, severely limiting their exposure to computers, etc.

Naturally, every child is different, and most won't have similar interests to what I had as a child, but speaking from experience: I would not have flourished in such an environment. I would never have had the liberty to mod video games, install Linux, etc. in a situation like that. I wouldn't have even encountered an interest in such things.

A concern with what a child does on his or her own can easily evolve into overbearing control and censorship. I want every parent to understand that.

Re: Apple shareholders push for study of phone addiction in children

#250

Post by thomastjeffery » Tue, Jan 09, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

659087 wrote: post #211

thomastjeffery wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If using a computer is addictive, what is the response? I am concerned with any action that takes a child's privacy or liberty from them. I haven't heard a proposed solution that does neither, and most do both. Someone with the absolute best intentions it's likely to take seriously harmful actions when privacy and liberty are disrespected.

> I am concerned with any action that takes a child's privacy or liberty from them. Such as signing them up for a Facebook account, or having their schools force them to use Google hardware and services that track everything they do?

Absolutely!

Also, commonplace firewalls that are made to keep them away from porn, but track them, have serious false-positives, and are often trivially circumvented, giving a false sense of security.

Another thing that really bothers me is that Microsoft convinces practically every school to use their software by giving it to schools "for free", and convincing educators that there are no viable alternatives.

Children usually don't get any opportunity to use a computer freely, i. e. installing other OS's, or even installing software. This means the only opportunities they get are at home, and many don't have their own authority over a real computer at home, either.

It's commonplace for young teenagers to learn how to circumvent arbitrary "security" measures so that they can find liberty, but that isn't always trivial enough to happen. These barriers do more damage than good.