Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#241

Post by throwaway76543 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

turbinerneiter wrote: post #235

throwaway76543 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You declare "there is no flaw" and then you proceed to describe it in detail. Surely you can see the flaw in this new line of reasoning as well?

Sorry, but "Surely you can see the flaw" is not meaningful contribution to the discussion. It's just a passive aggressive way of saying "you are wrong so please think until you realize the superiority of my opinion". There is two simple truths. 1. If a group decides that it doesn't want to be ruled by a certain body, it's hard to legitimize the continuation of that rule. 2. If any group, especially very small ones ca…

The phrase you object to is an invitation to consider the points which were raised in the paragraph just above. I think a reasonable person can immediately see the error.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#242

Post by rasjani » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

rasjani wrote: post #33

pjc50 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh?

Auto corrected fascism to fairism maybe ? Ruling party in Spain was started by Franco's people.

Downvoted for pointing a typo and a possible reason for using that word? Manual Fraga was serving as part of Francois Spain politics and started PP. Thus some people do consider the roots of the party as fascist. Sorry for pointing this out

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#243

Post by Tech-Noir » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 12:10 AM UTC

johnchristopher wrote: post #230

dgut wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you. History is not your strong side then, I guess. > Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea. Rubber bullets are nonlethal and not meant to cause serious injuries or death unless of course misused at very close range. Participating in an illegal uprising isn't going to be consequence-free.

Illegal uprising ? Come on, it's not like it's about half a dozen colonels ordering troops to seize the parliament. It's ten of thousands civilians putting papers in ballots.

His comments are so flawed and extreme I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's merely trolling.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#244

Post by 6t6t6t6 » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 12:24 AM UTC

blfr wrote: post #47

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation. If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.

They didn't even tried to campaign for the NO.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#245

Post by slededit » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 4:02 AM UTC

ritchiea wrote: post #77

adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent. Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't…

At the time of the referendum Quebec was subsidizing the rest of Canada through equalization payments. More recently they've been on the receiving end but that has not been true for most of its history.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#246

Post by gjjrfcbugxbhf » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 6:20 AM UTC

dgut wrote: post #143

gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.

That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.

Norway came to be controlled by Denmark then Sweden by the same type of historic accident as the Catalans by Spain. Norway was lucky enough to take the chance at independence 100 years ago. Why should the Catalans not have the same opportunity to control their own future if they do wish?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#247

Post by gjjrfcbugxbhf » Mon, Oct 02, 2017, 6:30 AM UTC

dgut wrote: post #190

gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words and votes - that is what we use in the UK to handle the issue of Scottish independence. It has proved much better than guns (c/f Scotland and the troubles in Northern Ireland). The Spanish police have gone in using force to prevent a democractic process.

Afaik the Catalonian separatist movement is a lot larger than the Scottish one, fueled by the last financial crisis. I strongly doubt the UK can claim moral superiority above Spain.

The Scottish and Catalan separatist movements were actually very similar until yesterday. Both have so far choosen the democratic route to freedom. In both nations the support for independence was under 50% but the support for a referendum to decide the issue was very high. The fact that the Spanish state used illegal force (some of the police used had no legal basis to enter Catalonia and the use of rubber bullets by police is not allowed within Catalonia) to break up a democractic vote will presumably cause the two movements to diverge now.

Btw no one is claiming moral superiority - merely experience. The UK has a long history of suppressing independence movements by force and this failing. With Scotland they finally tried another approach and it seems to work better so far..

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#248

Post by _Tev » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 11:55 AM UTC

mercer wrote: post #223

gambiting wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> because people would recognise they are better off together I don't believe for a second that people will. There are groups of people who don't give a crap about "being better off" - they care about showing those damn Spanish/British/French/German/Polish/ what they think and being able to "finally decide for themselves" which is complete nonsense. If people could so easily see the benefits of staying together then…

While I do agree with you, there's a bit of me that wonders whether allowing some regression on a smaller scale (although Brexit is by no means small) might keep us from becoming a powder keg that explodes at a later time. Already after Brexit I've heard quite a few reports of 1) young Brits elsewhere in Europe becoming much more engaged with politics because 'now it matters', and 2) Brexit voters who now regret thei…

Yeah, I'd say let's allow UK to crash and burn in Brexit, so people have cautionary tale and educate themselves better next time they make such a big decision.

It sounds mean, but as you are saying - we have to allow that at least sometimes, so people are ok with listening to more educated people next time. Because when even such fragmented group as economists agreed universally that Brexit is bad, it just is bad, and people should accept it.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#249

Post by _Tev » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 12:04 PM UTC

monort wrote: post #200

codedokode wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you allow anyone to declare independence then Europe might split back apart into hundreds of small provinces. For example, there were times when major Greek and Italian cities were independent states, what if they will want to return back to that time? In this case an external enemy will conquer those small states one by one like Pacman eats dots.

Why do you think a military alliance requires a political one? They can join e.g. NATO if they are afraid of Russia.

They will not be able to meaningfully contribute to such military alliance - every state having single fighter jet? Or a few tanks?

And if they pool money to form an army - how will be the funding determined? Some states will want more defence, some less, some will prefer naval power, some airpower . . .

if those people can't agree on anything to such extent that they want to be entirely separate, how would they agree on anything when they would have even less incentive to cooperate? See how dysfunctional EU seems at times today, and this would be way worse . . .

Especially when you start considering other forms of warfare, like trade. Solving all problems leads right back to something resembling either superstate or close coalition of large states.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#250

Post by monort » Tue, Oct 03, 2017, 2:49 PM UTC

_Tev wrote: post #249

monort wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think a military alliance requires a political one? They can join e.g. NATO if they are afraid of Russia.

They will not be able to meaningfully contribute to such military alliance - every state having single fighter jet? Or a few tanks? And if they pool money to form an army - how will be the funding determined? Some states will want more defence, some less, some will prefer naval power, some airpower . . . if those people can't agree on anything to such extent that they want to be entirely separate, how would they agre…

They will cooperate if they have a threat of invasion, they won't cooperate to have a large standing army - and that is a good outcome. For example see mutual defence of Switzerland cantons before federal state.