Yes, organic farming will kill us all • Hacker News Board

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#241

Post by randomdata » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 4:43 PM UTC

loup-vaillant wrote: post #231

randomdata wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the actual downsides seem more serious What part seems serious? That the offspring are not useful for replant? It's really not that big of a deal, honestly. I, like most farmers, don't have the equipment to prepare the seeds for replant anyway, so by the time I contract that out I may as well just buy from someone who is already in the business of selling seeds. Specialization and economies of scale won out. It…

> What part seems serious? That the offspring are not useful for replant? There is that, but also the cost of maintaining such seeds (seems to be higher than for regular seeds). I get the economy of scale though. There's also the problem of single point of failure. I cannot help but think that if farmers were self-seeding, the system would be more resilient. I'm not sure. Yet another problem is one of control. If Bay…

> but also the cost of maintaining such seeds (seems to be higher than for regular seeds).

You get what you pay for. Virtual anyone in the world can produce an identical product, so competition is fierce. I dare even say that farming is the most competitive industry in the world. There is no room at all to overspend on something, so the hybrids have to show a benefit to even consider the cost. They exist where they have proven to be worth it.

> If Bayer controls our seeds the way Alphabet controls our data, this isn't going to be fun when start using that control for something we didn't expect. I mean, it's food. We need it, and they know it.

I cannot speak for all farmers, but all the seed I grow, except for corn, is produced by local companies, one of which is owned as a co-operative by the local farmers. I don't really share in your control concerns. Corn is the exception on my farm as the technology that the major players have developed has far and away exceeded anything else being produced.

But, to be clear, corn is not the sweetcorn that you find down at your local grocer. Corn is primarily animal feed, with some use in production of HFCS and ethanol. So, maybe hypothetically, they can attack your meat consumption (and your sugary drinks, and your gasoline). Many people I have had discussions with would argue that is a good thing! But I also don't understand what the incentive would be. People will, as begrudgingly as it may be, start eating other foods and the value of their seed would drop to zero. Not a great play, in my opinion.

Besides, what control they can have over the market is entirely limited to the laws made by the people. While hybrids have been commonplace for nearly a century and GMOs for several decades without any trouble, if something magically changed in the future, the populace could force a change in the laws to save the food supply.

> I don't trust them. ... I believe the "oops it requires too much water" has happened before.

Sure. We had a hybrid variety fail a few years back. We were compensated by the seed vendor for their failure to deliver. I don't know about this situation in India, but they seem to understand the value of not pissing off farmers in my experience.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#242

Post by TimonKnigge » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 4:50 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #235

jankotek wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bottled water. EU dictates common limits for common market. No source, it is over 10 years ago.

IA(Definitely)NAL, but is this what you're referring to? http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:1... If so, it says under (19) that member states are free to set more stringent limits if they so please.

Article 5 paragraph 2 in your link more explicitely says this as well.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#243

Post by geon » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #202

XorNot wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You continue to reference chemistry inaccurately: cadmium in tattoo-ink is also harmless in the water-table, generally, because its complexed into a non-bioavailable state which is why it works in ink and paints safely. Conversely free cadmium in any form is a toxic heavy metal. No one is farming with cadmium-based fertilizer, so I don't know what the point of your first 4 paragraphs is? You tossed out an example int…

Yeah, we're not communicating well: I'm sorry. I'm making an effort. I don't remember anywhere suggesting that _I_ was talking about tattoo ink. Context suggests that I meant the toxic heavy metal… and while I obviously am not petrified with fear of cadmium if I keep Cadmium Yellow around, I don't propose to lick it even if your context suggests it's effectively as harmless as Burnt Sienna (iron oxide-based). And thi…

See, this is great! Im learning stuff now.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#244

Post by rini17 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #176

rini17 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't even. Of course they are sustainable without artificial fertilizers, if compost and animal manure (nothing big necessary, just chicken and rabbits) is used. Of course, you can use fertilizers and stuff in unsustainable way, too, but what does that prove or disprove?

Well it depends on what you call 'sustainable'. I use a pretty common definition, roughly 'can in this way, without using non-renewable, external energy sources, a population be fed'. If I'm reading you correctly, you're using a definition of 'can this particular plot be sustained as a home garden without external inputs'; well yes, it probably (maybe) can. What my definition adds is 'can the whole population be fed…

Let me provide example of what I think is sustainable. This system uses electrical energy from grid(still much less energy than fossil eqivalent used by mainstream farming machinery) and occassional local as-needed application of pesticides. I know the man who developed it, he was able to repay all loans without subsidies and he is able to provide food for 50 people iirc. http://www.slideshare.net/inmediaslovakia/farmlandia

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#245

Post by lisael_ » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #240

krzyk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French farmers are the biggest group of farmers that is subsidized by EU. For me it is the source of everything what's wrong with farming in EU. Because of subsidies they produce crops that are not developed in efficient way (because they will receive subsidy either way). Because of them e.g. Polish farmers are forced to produce less milk than they have ability to - milk producers are given fines if they create to mu…

In exchange for this "problem" however the French get the French countryside, which is fucking awesome. When people discuss this issue without at least somewhat acknowledging that motivation it seems hard to take the argument seriously.

It's very serion, it's exactly the heart of the issue in France. The French countryside is huge (as compared to the urban area) and it's not a wild space, as, say, a big part of the US territory. It has always been cropped. You just can't stop. You have to find a way to keep people working and living in this area otherwise within a decade or two, France is a rainforest.

That means paying farmers with EU subsides.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#246

Post by KaiserPro » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #201

KaiserPro wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most subsistence farmers will never be able to use GMOs. It requires capital outlay that is just not possible. > For instance, organic farming thinks GMO's are bad No, I think modern GMOs are going in the wrong direction. Modern wheat varieties have shrunk from being ~1.2 meters to not very high, through the use of selection, as has herbicide/pesticide tolerance. GMOs just make it faster. All of this means that you d…

> GMOs just make it faster. No, GMOs will inherently change the game in the long term. We'll be able to truly engineer life to be an optimal food supply, e.g. there's no inherent reason there can't be a plant that can sit in your window, withstand freezing temperatures, and grow both tomatoes, avocados and bananas. Some versions of this are already happening with GMO food, they're surgically introducing features to t…

I take your last point, I apologise.

So, the problem with permaculture, its that they like to share techniques but not the results in any meaningful way. There are some places that do proper scientific studies, but they are often drowned out by the "beardy weirdies" Its very difficult to asses which technique is worth trying.

However, the take away is that you make nature do most of the work. For example mixing crops in the same field, This increases yields in some cases, and reduces the need for weeding (mechanical or not) in others.

You also have to take care of the soil, some crops are nitrogen fixers, some are not. Other leave nutrients, some take them away. One example still in use is beans. You'll see bean crops rotting in the ground after harvest, this is so that the root nodules release the nitrogen they fix during life.

Traditionally, you'd rotate the usage of a field, sometimes wheat, sometimes beet, potatoes, and then lay to grass and get the animals to shit all over it. However that doesn't work everywhere. Some places, laying to grass means you loose half your soil.

But, with average field sizes growing, and subsidies, it means its often not practical to run animals over it. plus it can be a massive hit in profits, having a whole field devoted to animals.

Then there is drainage. Pesticides kill the soil. I know that sounds stupid, but the soil is a massive sprawling savannah of microbes, beetles, fungii, worms, bacteria, and things not yet known to science. Why is that important? because a) it provides a way of transmuting stuff to nutirents, and b) it makes a soft, water retaining self regulating temperature controlled sponge.

You can make some your self. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta if you are feeling advances. Or more simply, take one weeks food waste (a good mix of wet and or fibrous material) shove in cardboard box in the corner somewhere, not to hot or cold.

leave for a few months (if you're lucky it'll generate heat)

then take the rich dark odourless compost, and grow something in it. as a control, take sand, and use which ever balanced fertiliser liquid you like.

sorry that was rambling. However, does that help in any way?

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#247

Post by jankotek » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 6:13 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #235

jankotek wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bottled water. EU dictates common limits for common market. No source, it is over 10 years ago.

IA(Definitely)NAL, but is this what you're referring to? http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:1... If so, it says under (19) that member states are free to set more stringent limits if they so please.

Honestly I do not know, that is just something I read in specialized forum very long time ago.

But some points:

- EU Shengen rules are pretty strictly enforced. EU even regulates "curvature of bananas". I can not imagine situation where Germany could not sell bottled water on Czech market.

- All formulation are talking about human health; "essential quality and health parameters" or "if human life is endangered". I do not think this applies to german bottled water. Czech springs (and bottled water) are pretty high quality, and our limits were very strict even compared to international standards.

- I mentioned it as a curiosity. Because communism caused lot of pollution in here. Back in 2000 it was a huge contrast to cross borders to Germany or Austria. It is surprising that we had stricter rules on water.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#248

Post by slizard » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

givinguflac wrote: post #200

bryanlarsen wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Really no. Conventional farmers can quickly boost the fertility of their soil by adding some quick-fix nutrients." Maybe in the UK, but definitely not here in Saskatchewan. Once soil has been destroyed through tillage, it takes a good decade of rehabilitation to make the soil viable again. Lost organic matter can't be replaced with a chemical fertilizer.

Can you please try to add sources? The majority of what you're arguing goes against everything I've learned. Also, saying tilling alone turned the Fertile Crescent into Iraqi deserts is absurd. There is myriad evidence of climate change playing a big part in that over the last few thousand years. I'm not saying it didn't perhaps contribute, but stating it's the direct cause is ridiculous. Also, not for nothing, but y…

Support for a lot of the statements can be found in the refs of this Science VS podcast episode [1] which, in its 3rd part, deals specifically with the environmental impact of organic farming.

[1] https://gimletmedia.com/episode/5-organic-food/

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#249

Post by justin_vanw » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #57

justin_vanw wrote: post #12

I think this is just an example of 'elitism' on the part of the author. It is ludicrous to think that there is a chance that the 'local/organic' movement will ever capture more than 1%-2% of food production. Most people don't care, and some fraction of people that do care are intelligent enough to decide that additional cost for no increase in quality is not worth it. So this is 'elitism' because people think that a…

It is ludicrous to think that there is a chance that the 'local/organic' movement will ever... Why are you conflating local and organic? Neither implies the other and they're two entirely different questions. (local && organic) may never capture a huge share of the market, but that is an entirely unrelated question to organic farming

Yea I agree, the article largely conflated them and I was arguing with the article.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#250

Post by justin_vanw » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

rini17 wrote: post #85

justin_vanw wrote: post #12

I think this is just an example of 'elitism' on the part of the author. It is ludicrous to think that there is a chance that the 'local/organic' movement will ever capture more than 1%-2% of food production. Most people don't care, and some fraction of people that do care are intelligent enough to decide that additional cost for no increase in quality is not worth it. So this is 'elitism' because people think that a…

It's only your preconceptions that are ludicrous. In 1990s agriculture in Russia partially collapsed, so people turned to their small plots of land and "captured the food production". They were lucky they knew how - the communist government-managed centralized distribution was unreliable so the skill was handy. Of course, there's no hard data from this chaotic period, but being from eastern european country myself, i…

The article is discussing how we 'whether we will be able to make enough food if we try to grow everything locally', which I am saying is silly since we aren't really headed in that direction outside of high end niche markets.

You are saying the other way around, 'we have to go local because we can't make enough food', which is great, and I believe something people should be more prepared to do just in case, but it has nothing to do with the article.