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Yes, organic farming will kill us all

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Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#161

Post by ptaipale »

legulere wrote: post #119
avar wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start by picking GMOs instead of the woo-woo that is organic farming. See e.g. a German-funded meta-analysis[1] that found that: "[...] the adoption of herbicide-tolerant (HT) soybean, maize, and cotton, and insect-resistant (IR) maize and cotton has resulted in a 22% increase in average yields, a 37% overall decrease in pesticide use, and a 68% increase in farmer profits.". 1. http://www.theskepticsguide.org/gm-impa…

> insect-resistant (IR) [...] decrease in pesticide use So the pesticides do not count if you let the plants produce them themselves? Also I find it kind of hard to believe that making plants herbicide resistant and spraying them with herbicides reduces the amount of pesticides used.

It's actually quite easy to believe because the mechanics makes sense: instead of a number of different herbicides to attack a large number of different weeds, herbicide resistant crop breeds allow you to use just one herbicide, with a much smaller total amount.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#162

Post by Angostura »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #117
ThePhysicist wrote: post #5

The thing with conventional farming is that a lot of the costs (in terms of environmental damage which needs to be repaired) are currently externalized, i.e. payed for by the society, which indeed makes industrial farming more cost-effective than organic farming, at least for the farmer (though in many countries you can charge a good premium for organic food, which will often outweigh your additional cost). The same…

The criticisms of conventional farming are valid, but that doesn't mean that organic farming is any better. I believe that organic farming is much more likely to cause soil degradation and environmental harm than conventional farming for several different reasons: - organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage, which causes immense amounts of damage to the soil directly and allowing the soil to…

> organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage

No - mulching, no and no til are very common

> For example, some organic farmers literally salt their soil

Certainly in the UK you wouldn't get organic certification for doing that. The certified pesticides over here are genderally safer for the environment, if more labour intensive.

> Conventional farmers care far more about the value of their land than organic farmers do

Really no. Conventional farmers can quickly boost the fertility of their soil by adding some quick-fix nutrients.

> they sometimes spread massive amounts of manure on their fields

Where do you think this manure goes otherwise?

> Their major costs are diesel, herbicides & pesticides -- minimizing those is both good for the farmer's pocketbook and the environment.

Unless of course, there's a really cheap pesticide that is appalling for the environment.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#163

Post by rocqua »

throwaway1892 wrote: post #24
loup-vaillant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Organic farming is however still far from being enough to make us live. What I have seen says otherwise. There's a thing about chemical agriculture: when you first implement it, you get incredible yields. Then the soil starts dying (no more acari, no more fungi, compressed soil…), and the yields slowly go back to roughly the previous levels, only this time you need all the chemicals to sustain it. If you suddenly s…

The problem (here in France) is that the number of farmers is going down hard (with suicides every day). They are currently crushed by regulations, labor costs, undercuts by products from other countries with different labor costs and regulations and the supermarkets that make big margin on their back. So your solution is good, but it is not currently applicable here in France.

The rethoric I've heard here (Netherlands) is that France idealizes the small farm as a living unit, which leads to undersized and under-modernized farms. This is then being propped up by subsidies, but imports (and government budgets) are putting more pressure on these farms' inefficiencies than the subsidies can compensate.

I am in no position to judge either way.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#164

Post by loup-vaillant »

randomdata wrote: post #149
loup-vaillant wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law dissuades of from replanting patented seeds, if that is what you had in mind? That works too, though I also thought of F1 hybrids (made so second generation crops are crap), an idea GMO can copy. Here in France, there's a law forbidding to grow any food outside a pre-approved list of crops —most of which seems to be F1 hybrids. Fortunately it doesn't appear to be enforced right now, so some farmers grow old…

> made so second generation crops are crap To be clear, they're not specifically made so that second generation crops are crap. That's just the natural process of nature. If you selected the two most ideal humans to breed, by the time their children have children, it's easy to see that there is no guarantee that the original traits in the parents that were selected for are carried down the line. The best traits are s…

Hasn't Bayer bought Monsanto by the way? In any case, you're certainly more aware of those firms than I am. It's your trade after all. I have heard those names, but the propaganda I've seen tend to point to Monsanto as the one deserving the torches and pitchforks.

> If you selected the two most ideal humans to breed

I get the point (super-crops that regress to the mean after a couple generations), but the actual downsides seem more serious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid#Disadvantages On the other hand, the upsides are enticing.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#165

Post by pbhjpbhj »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #117
ThePhysicist wrote: post #5

The thing with conventional farming is that a lot of the costs (in terms of environmental damage which needs to be repaired) are currently externalized, i.e. payed for by the society, which indeed makes industrial farming more cost-effective than organic farming, at least for the farmer (though in many countries you can charge a good premium for organic food, which will often outweigh your additional cost). The same…

The criticisms of conventional farming are valid, but that doesn't mean that organic farming is any better. I believe that organic farming is much more likely to cause soil degradation and environmental harm than conventional farming for several different reasons: - organic farming's main tool to combat weeds and regrowth is tillage, which causes immense amounts of damage to the soil directly and allowing the soil to…

>Conventional farmers care far more about the value of their land than organic farmers do. [...] //

You're going to need some pretty amazing sources to convince me that Organic farmers in general care less about sustainable farming than those practising more conventional techniques.

This sort of unsupported claim makes anything else you're saying lack credence IMO.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#166

Post by riprowan »

specialist wrote: post #159
riprowan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overgeneralize industrial meat production to all forms of ranching. There are huge areas of the USA that are not amenable to farming but which can be ranched. Raising cattle on these lands does not necessarily consume any water, food, or arable land that would be productively used otherwise. This form of ranching serves many purposes, one of which is to simulate the effect of millions of grazing animals r…

"There is such a thing as sustainable ranching..." Give two examples (in the USA).

I don't understand the question.

Can you help me understand why the idea that raising animals cannot be sustainable, when clearly grazing animals can live perfectly well on their own with no care whatsoever from humans (as they have for millennia) on areas of land that are not suitable for farming?

I think the direct answer to your question is that clearly carnivorism is environmentally sustainable, as it has been practiced by millions of various species for hundreds of millions of years.

Maybe your greater question is, "is a constantly growing human population sustainable?" which is outside the scope of this discussion.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#167

Post by ptaipale »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #126
XorNot wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extremely acidic and enzyme rich system in your stomach demolishes the chemical structure, DNA, and proteins into constituant amino acids.

Amusing, but the real question is why it's safe for humans to eat corn laced with pesticides when (I assume?) we use essentially the same digestive process as the targeted bugs. Or, "why is it safe to eat food that is literally designed to have poison in it?" I would speculate that the answer is that the pesticide in question doesn't affect humans, but it's a legitimate concern.

The poison is in the dose. Of course all pesticides can be harmful, at least if the dose is a 200 litre barrel that is dropped on your head. Even pure water is harmful, and the dose for this is that drinking 5 to 10 litres will kill you.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#168

Post by Stauche »

Why does every article that bashes organic foods say they are not nutritionally superior to conventional foods?

Who cares if they aren't!? I'm not eating them because of that. I'm eating them because of less/safer pesticide use.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#169

Post by jankotek »

TimonKnigge wrote: post #102
jankotek wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When joining EU, Czech Republic had to raise 5x nitrate limits in drinking water. Mainly for pollution in germany. Now water for toddlers is not safe for some aquarium fish.

Sorry, but do you have a source for this? The EU only sets a maximum level (50 mg/l apparently [1]), but member states are free to set lower maximums. [1] http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/nitrate-in...

This is bottled water. EU dictates common limits for common market. No source, it is over 10 years ago.

Re: Yes, organic farming will kill us all

#170

Post by randomdata »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #164
randomdata wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> made so second generation crops are crap To be clear, they're not specifically made so that second generation crops are crap. That's just the natural process of nature. If you selected the two most ideal humans to breed, by the time their children have children, it's easy to see that there is no guarantee that the original traits in the parents that were selected for are carried down the line. The best traits are s…

Hasn't Bayer bought Monsanto by the way? In any case, you're certainly more aware of those firms than I am. It's your trade after all. I have heard those names, but the propaganda I've seen tend to point to Monsanto as the one deserving the torches and pitchforks. > If you selected the two most ideal humans to breed I get the point (super-crops that regress to the mean after a couple generations), but the actual down…

> but the actual downsides seem more serious

What part seems serious? That the offspring are not useful for replant? It's really not that big of a deal, honestly. I, like most farmers, don't have the equipment to prepare the seeds for replant anyway, so by the time I contract that out I may as well just buy from someone who is already in the business of selling seeds. Specialization and economies of scale won out.

It's no surprise that farmers themselves are not overly concerned about the replanting issue. It didn't happen much even before it became a legal issue. It's funny to me how the rest of the population have latched onto that topic.

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