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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#241

Post by teh_klev »

sievebrain wrote: post #97
ck425 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We might not have to leave the uk and rejoin. There's precedence for regions of countries not being in the EU while other are. Additionally the UK is a union between Scotland and England so we'd technically not be leaving, but choosing to break the union, at which point the UK ceases to exist and becomes Scotland and England (and it's associated region/principalities etc). Since the UK is the member of the EU (not it…

The EU Commission has already said flat out there would have to be a new application. That application would certainly be vetoed by either the Spanish (catalan issues) or the Germans (Scotland has a bigger deficit than Greece).

Spain wouldn't block Scotland's entry to the EU, it comes down to fishing rights, amongst other things:

"However there is another reason closer to the heart of the Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy that Spain won’t block Scottish accession to the EU. Interestingly, during the last independence referendum Rajoy was asked three times in an interview with El Pais newspaper whether he would veto Scotland, and three times he refused to reply. He refused to reply because he didn’t want to encourage Scottish independence by telling the truth.

Mariano Rajoy comes from Galicia, and represents the city of A Coruña in the Spanish parliament, the Cortes. The mainstay of the local economy is the fishing industry, and big fishing interests are the main funders of Rajoy’s own local party. The Galician fishing fleet depends on its access to Scottish waters in order to feed Spain’s enormous appetite for seafood, and any attempt by Spain to veto Scottish membership of the EU would threaten that access. Rajoy would then find that his local party’s bank balance was as empty as the fish counter in a Spanish supermarket. He’s not going to let that happen."

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/25/an-argument-as...

See also:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/what-mariano-rajoy-didnt-say/

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#242

Post by collyw »

DanBC wrote: post #186
collyw wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.

Accusations of xenophobia are hard to avoid when the anti-immigration debate has been led by the National Front ("Go home pakis"); the BNP (Nazi salutes); Britain First (an incoherent but unequivocally fascist ideology). We've already seen a rise in xenophobic, racist, hate crime. To use UKIPs line, why aren't moderate anti-immigrationists condemning this violence?

"Go home pakis" is a far cry from questioning immigration, or not agreeing with an open door policy.

But you have done exactly that, associated anyone bringing up the subject with a fascist ideology.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#243

Post by pluteoid »

alexbilbie wrote: post #42
pluteoid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As things stand, Cameron will be replaced by a new Conservative leader in October who will be under pressure to call a general election more or less immediately (without the present mess we were not due another one until 2020). The Liberal Democrats, our third largest party, have pledged to run an election campaign based on nullifying the Brexit vote. So it seems what you propose is going to happen, but unfortunately…

The PM can't call for a general election anymore due to the Fixed Term Parliament Act 2011. Only a vote of no confidence in the Government by MPs or a unilateral decision by two thirds of MPs can break the five year parliament and result in a general election.

And that's exactly what we'll probably see here – 2/3 majority call for a general election. Just read the current headlines.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#244

Post by dTal »

arethuza wrote: post #144
vkou wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The public isn't ever asked to vote on wars, trade deals, etc. When it is asked to shoot itself in the foot with a non-binding referendum, overturning it would be no different. In a representative democracy, all you vote for is your representative. The rest is politics.

Exactly, if we had a consultative democracy we'd probably have the death penalty!

You may want to lower your voice. If there's one thing this referendum has (re)demonstrated it's that things can go from wingnut to oh-my-god-its-happening frighteningly quickly.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#245

Post by ZeroGravitas »

teh_klev wrote: post #238
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to note that the Scottish Indepndence referendum was open to non-Scots living in the country, and it tipped the balance below 50%, but if set up in the same way as the EU vote, they'd have met have had a majority.

> and it tipped the balance below 50% I'd need a citation for that being the reason; anecdotal I know, but I have several non-Scottish/British pals who all voted Yes for independence. It's generally accepted that the reason that Yes lost was that we had the full might of the British state propaganda machine putting the fear of god into people, i.e. British Government, BBC and practically every newspaper (the exceptio…

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-refe...

53% Yes for Scots-born,

72% No for rest-of-UK born,

57% No for non-UK

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#246

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

throwaway049 wrote: post #75
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

>> [EU citizens] have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so.

Woa. Hang on a minute. Why do I have to become a UK citizen in order to be able to partake in the decisions that directly affect my life?

I've lived here for over a decade now. I studied here, I work here, I pay taxes, I pay contributions to the NHS. Why does it make any difference whether I'm a UK citizen or not?

In fact, the only difference between myself with British citizenship and myself without, is ... whether I have the British citizenship or not.

And yet that difference determines whether I can vote or not. How does that make any sense? It's exactly as reasonable as granting the right to vote to only men, or only Christians, or something completely unacceptable like that.

I live in this country that wants to call itself democratic. Like, it just made a point of how it loves democracy so much it's willing to jump off a cliff singing God Save the Queen because it didn't think it had enough democracy.

So how is it all so democratic that a few million active, productive people living here don't get to have a say in their own affairs?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#247

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

toyg wrote: post #127
throwaway049 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

The whole citizenship process costs around £1.5k, assuming you pass all hurdles at the first attempt, so for many is not a decision you can take lightly; prices increased 10x in the last decade explicitly to keep us Euro-rabble out. EU residents can still vote at local levels so we do get a say in matters directly relevant. I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respe…

>> I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respect for history and traditions I may not be a part of and might not fully comprehend. That was probably a mistake.

I made the exact same mistake, for the exact same reasons.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#248

Post by throwaway049 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #246
throwaway049 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

>> [EU citizens] have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. Woa. Hang on a minute. Why do I have to become a UK citizen in order to be able to partake in the decisions that directly affect my life? I've lived here for over a decade now. I studied here, I work here, I pay taxes, I pay contributions to the NHS. Why does it make any difference whether I'm a UK citizen or not? In fa…

I can't recall ever hearing of a campaign for residents, as distinct from citizens, to have the vote in parliamentary elections. You were and still are free to become a citizen or even decline to become one and campaign for voting rights for permanent residents. Political change doesn't normally come from just asking nicely. It took a fight to win the vote for working class men and another fight, not just a war of words but physical violence, to get the franchise extended to women. I'm not saying you should start stockpiling weapons but you could at least do some campaigning.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#249

Post by Veratyr »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #246
throwaway049 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

>> [EU citizens] have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. Woa. Hang on a minute. Why do I have to become a UK citizen in order to be able to partake in the decisions that directly affect my life? I've lived here for over a decade now. I studied here, I work here, I pay taxes, I pay contributions to the NHS. Why does it make any difference whether I'm a UK citizen or not? In fa…

Disclaimer: I'm not a British citizen, just an expat of another country.

The difference between a citizen and a resident is that a citizen has made a long term commitment to the country. A citizen has decided that they want to be a part of the country, with all of the privileges and responsibilities that entails.

Take a spectrum of immigration statii:

- Temporary resident working on a visa or similar.

- Long term resident working with indefinite leave to stay or permanent residence.

- Citizen

Now imagine what would happen if they can vote:

- Temporary resident: Doesn't necessarily care about long term effects of their vote on the country. Could vote for short term changes that benefit them then leave. Isn't integrated with the culture and could cause discontent.

- Long term resident: Hasn't committed to a long term relationship with the country so is essentially the same as a temporary resident. Has the option to become a citizen __and has chosen not to__.

Why shouldn't you agree to commit to the country long term if you want the privilege of affecting it long term?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#250

Post by ck425 »

sievebrain wrote: post #180
ck425 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You presume the referendum will be based on sound analysis. If there's one thing the EUref has shown it's that you don't need sound analysis. It also depends heavily on how the UK does in the coming year. The UK needs to be economically and politically powerful enough that it's not worth giving up for self determination. It doesn't need to be a better deal, it has to be better enough to defeat romantic notions of ind…

There you go: assuming the analysis of leave voters was not sound. Many voters made a very straightforward analysis: "the EU means I compete against an essentially infinite supply of labour, I can't do that, therefore we should get out of the EU so we can restrict immigration again". You may not agree with this reasoning or you may feel the various other benefits of the EU outweigh them in your personal circumstances…

I was referencing the anti-expert rhetoric that was popular among the leave campaign. I'm sure many leave voters had their reasons but there was also a significant anti-expert segment.

Do you have current statistics on the Scottish spending deficit? Last time I looked there was one but it was far from huge, especially when you account for defence and administration savings from being a small country.

The arguments for the EU aren't purely economic.

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