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Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#121

Post by gmac »

mhw wrote: post #106
codecamper wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds funny, but maybe closer to the reality of the modern age? So much of GDP now comes from cities & information workers, I'd imagine. Is it just London that wanted to remain? What about the other cities? I haven't followed the race closely, but I'm guessing it was the country bumpkins mostly in favor of leaving?

> Is it just London that wanted to remain? What about the other cities? Despite much of the media describing this as the north voting to leave, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle upon Tyne, Harrogate and York all voted to remain. Further south there's also Bristol, Cardiff, Cambridge, Oxford. There are cities and urban areas that voted to leave, but generally speaking it does seem to be that the areas with lower…

And Brighton. Lots of university towns.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#122

Post by DanBC »

Nursie wrote: post #61
shin_lao wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several political leaders admitted that they lied during the election, therefore people voted based on lies. Since the majority isn't that big (less than 52%) is would be acceptable to not immediately follow through. It's as big as a constitutional change and such change usually require more than 50% to be adopted.

Like David Cameron and his promise to invoke article 50 last Friday? Or George Osborne and his punishment budget? There were dreadful lies on both sides. Personally I treated the entire campaign period as a sideshow we'd have been better off without, the issues and opinions about EU membership are far deeper rooted than the last few weeks of noisy bickering. Further, the constitutional changes that got us in were not…

I agree that both sides were pretty bad.

Did Remain have a lie painted on the side of their bus? A lie printed on huge posters at press conferences? A lie that they rode back from on the morning of the results?

http://imgur.com/indvx6a

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#123

Post by robhu »

antouank wrote: post #64
Nursie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. They are not citizens, their lives may be affected but they have no vote. This has no bearing whatsoever on any of my argument above. 2. I voted 'remain'. If this result is ignored for a.second referendum I will vote 'leave' because I believe democratic respect is more important than EU membership. 3. Your 10% figure is pure conjecture. 4. It was a 4% margin. 5. Whether the referendum is legally binding or not has…

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

Lord Ashcroft commissioned a poll on the referendum day. That poll is here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-...

The main reason given by Leave voters was "The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK"

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#124

Post by robhu »

shin_lao wrote: post #54
Nursie wrote: post #21

There's a lot of clutching at straws going on at the moment. People coming out with political or legal theories, trying to interpret David Cameron's failure to immediately declare leaving under article 50 as kicking the whole issue into the long grass etc etc. This is the latest, like others it's more of an exercise in denial than it is in reality. Many of these things could come to pass, it's true, but each one carr…

Several political leaders admitted that they lied during the election, therefore people voted based on lies. Since the majority isn't that big (less than 52%) is would be acceptable to not immediately follow through. It's as big as a constitutional change and such change usually require more than 50% to be adopted.

I have not seen anyone admit that they lied - I have seen several point out that what they said when asked about a policy was more nuanced than what was a slogan, but that is not lieing. Can you please reference where you saw a politician actually "admit they lied"?

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#125

Post by collyw »

_Understated_ wrote: post #87
antouank wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you do not care whether the UK will be (or maybe is) way worse off economically and that xenophobia/racism is now an "every day" thing. Fine, vote "leave", probably suits better that mentality.

I am utterly disgusted and bloody sick of being portrayed as a racist, xenophobic bigot because I wanted to take back democratic control of my country. Race issues had nothing to do with my decision to leave. How dare you paint me in that light when you know absolutely nothing about me or my motives for wanting to remove my country from the clutches of an undemocratic state. Your narrow-mindedness is part of the reas…

It annoys me as well, and I was in favor of staying in. Its the same when anyone raises an objection to immigration, they are almost immediately silenced by calls of racism or xenophobia. Thats no way to have a proper debate about anything.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#126

Post by robhu »

sievebrain wrote: post #96
onion2k wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

each one carries with it the implication that a direct democratic mandate, to leave the EU, is ignored There is no such mandate, implied or otherwise. The referendum was advisory. Legally there is nothing compelling the government to act on the result.

Legally the UK is still ruled by the Queen. That situation would change in a heartbeat if the Queen actually tried to rule.

In an extreme circumstance that is the role of the Monarch.

In 1975 in an extreme circumstance the Governor-General (the Queen's representative in Australia) dismissed the sitting Prime Minister and appointed a new one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional...

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#127

Post by toyg »

throwaway049 wrote: post #75
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

The whole citizenship process costs around £1.5k, assuming you pass all hurdles at the first attempt, so for many is not a decision you can take lightly; prices increased 10x in the last decade explicitly to keep us Euro-rabble out. EU residents can still vote at local levels so we do get a say in matters directly relevant. I personally thought I'd leave national politics to the "indigenous" mostly as a sign of respect for history and traditions I may not be a part of and might not fully comprehend. That was probably a mistake.

Last year I started citizenship proceedings for me and my wife, aggrieved by the darkening mood, but tbh at this point I think I'll save the money for a visa elsewhere. It's clear I'm not welcome anymore, despite paying more taxes and using less services than most beleavers; and it's clear the country as a whole wants to go back to the bad old days of Thatcher, with all its urban decay, racism, violence and permanent Tory majorities. I think my children might get a better chance elsewhere.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#128

Post by verbify »

Unosolo wrote: post #112
throwaway049 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

Commonwealth and Irish citizens resident in UK could vote, whereas resident EU citizens could not. A democracy is about people whose lives will be significantly affected by a decision having a right to take part in the decision-making. Why this logic was applied to resident Commonwealth and Irish citizens differently from residents from EU?

Irish people can vote in UK elections because of the Good Friday agreement - basically ensured that Republicans originally from Northern Ireland (and therefore had British citizenship) who resided in the Republic of Ireland and Loyalists from the Republic of Ireland who lived in the UK (I don't know how many of these there are) could vote in what they believed was their own country. It's a specific agreement that helped stop The Troubles.

Regarding Commonwealth citizens - I'm not sure of the logic, but it has something to do with Britain occupying them... At any rate, these are legal loopholes and not the standard state of affairs.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#129

Post by pi-err »

ck425 wrote: post #95
pi-err wrote: post #47

To quote a Tory MP: "Nicola Sturgeon seems to be the only one who knows what's she's doing". Warning of a constitutional crisis is good tactics. It probably will not lead to canceling brexit, though it will probably break the 1998 devolution law and change how Scotland can "sell" independence and its claim to stay in the EU. So it looks like this is either to lay ground for a "fast track" EU access due to special cir…

Definitely the former. That and possibly an attempt at a second indyref if the current momentum doesn't die. I live in Edinburgh, one of the areas with the highest No vote in the indyref, and pretty much everyone I talk to who voted No would strongly consider a Yes vote. Depending how the situation in westminster develops, this might calm down or it could get stronger.

I still see major obstacles to indyref 2: Scotland would have to join the Euro and Schengen, and build a border with England. That's choosing work over family and I bet Sturgeon doesn't underestimate the risk of a 2nd (and final) "stay".

Also: borders are sacred in Europe. States don't want to split/remodel per a 60 years old tradition.

There is a very strong case for indy Scotland (and i support it) but I admire that Sturgeon is smart enough to try and get the best of all possible outcomes.

Re: Could the Scottish Parliament Stop the UK from Leaving the EU?

#130

Post by te_chris »

throwaway049 wrote: post #75
antouank wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 4 million EU nationals that live in the UK, were not eligible to vote, and they are directly affected by his decision, while they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy as much as the ones who could vote ( if not more... ). Also, a significant percentage of those who voted "Leave", around 10% at least, now would certainly change their vote since they saw that "scare tactics" was basically people telling…

Nobody ever offered a say on UK national issues to EU nationals resident here. They cannot vote in elections to the UK parliament.[0] There have been a number of EU nationals quoted in the media as being aggrieved by this, but in many cases they have lived here more than long enough to become citizens and not chosen to do so. [0] http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registr...

That's because the whole point of the EU is for people to be European citizens. The intention of the project is that becoming a citizen doesn't matter, as you're a citizen of Europe and you have all the rights that bestows on you. Some still could, but it seems Boris is still desperate for the EU to basically function exactly as before, so who knows if they even need to worry?
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