Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#231

Post by ryandrake » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:17 PM UTC

derrekl wrote: post #81

LoSboccacc wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pay squash is why you should get out of field. engineering is the new proletariat, working at companies that rake in millions for pennies, while all managers above you get twice your pay just by organizing your time.

I don't see the managers above really making that much more. In fact I made less when I was team manager than half my team when I worked for a big public corp. The C level does make a lot more and/or the owners do but not all the management in between. With tech knowledge, though, you can escape the squash by starting your own business fairly easily. Not necessarily easy to create a successful business but easy to gi…

Yes, I believe this is more a more accurate assessment. I bet at most large and medium-sized tech companies, there's not a huge difference in compensation among rank-and-file employees (both individual contributors AND managers), with some managers earning more and some individual contributors making more. Probably no more than a 2X difference between what a junior engineer makes and what a senior engineering manager makes.

However, there's going to be a HUGE gulf between what they make and what the senior executives make--anywhere between 3X and 300X. That's where you go to escape the "salary squash".

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#232

Post by siberianbear » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:19 PM UTC

Two9A wrote: post #183

scalesolved wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds fantastic, I'd love to read a more in depth blog post about this!

The reference blog post from Mr Money Mustache is: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim... Essentially, your income in retirement should not be dictated by your current income, but by your current level of expenses. If you can save a multiple of your current annual expenses, and that multiple is high enough to account for real-terms investment gains, you're financially independent: you don't n…

@wsstrange:

The S&P 500 is 50% above its 2008 peak on May 8, 2008.[1] That's a 5% annual compounded return ((210/140)^(1/7)). And that's using the 2008 peak: if I use the lowest price from 2008 (in December), your return would have been 8.8% annually. Inflation (at least in USD) has been benign during this period, so probably there has been a real 4% return during that period. I don't know how you concluded that you didn't get a 4% real return during this period.

If you look at the stock market over any short-term (If you really want to understand this topic in more details and whether your portfolio is likely to fail over some period of time, I encourage you to play with FireCalc [2].

[1] http://tinyurl.com/poz7trc [2] http://www.firecalc.com/

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#233

Post by crististm » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:29 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #203

shanusmagnus wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should consider that, as a grey hair, one of the skills you should have picked up along the way is how to behave when talking to a VP.

The interesting thing about engineers is that they have very little tolerance for these destructive social shenanigans. Courtesy and politeness are one thing, but ignoring such a flagrantly flawed plan goes beyond courtesy and into professional negligence. When empirical thought is your bread and butter, as it is in the case of software developers, it's hard to see why you should have to acquiesce to the VP's ego. If…

I am now convinced that an idiot in a management position is unable to raise himself above the level of idiocy he is in - by any means. By definition, he should have to _listen_ and _weigh_ the facts being reported to him, not only to filter out the hidden agendas, but to also see all the facets of reality. Doing this would automatically exclude him from the idiots group.

Unfortunately most of management ones will not tolerate unaligned lower ranks and are unable to utter the words "he may have a point" to themselves and regroup and refocus.

Instead they will do whatever is necessary to remove the opposition.

See the Challenger for recent high profile examples.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#234

Post by nulltype » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:32 PM UTC

siberianbear wrote: post #138

misteredison12 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give more details on your story? I'm particularly interested in how much you needed to retire, and how you've set everything up to make yourself comfortable that you won't run out of money.

This subject has been researched in great detail. There's lots of great information all over the Internet. I recommend these two blogs if you want to learn more: http://earlyretirementextreme.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ The TL;DR is this: you need to be able to live off about 3.5% of your portfolio for one year. That will allow you to avoid depleting your principal over a very long term, and also give yourse…

Might I ask what places you would recommend?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#235

Post by ktran03 » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:43 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #158

Cupof37 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not confuse engineering with programming. Most programmers aren't engineers (don't have engineering degrees, aren't comfortable with physics / calculus, etc.) Real engineers generally don't have these employment issues as they age. Programmers are 'engineers' in the same way that those with an MCSE are 'engineers' -- they operate a computer and employ a unique and useful skill-set.

No true Scotsman. What's an engineer? I'd argue that people who studied software engineering for four or five years, then became software engineers, count as engineers. The fact that they don't have much insight into physics is wildly irrelevant.

This varies with where you live.

In Canada, a programmer is certainly not an engineer. And for Canadians going for a TN visa to work in the US, programmers are not allowed. Usually they try to slip in as 'Systems analysts' or craft the job/acceptance letter to fit under an engineering discipline.

Software Engineers are engineers in Canada. A self taught programmer doing css/html is not an engineer.

I'd simply qualify someone as an engineer, iff they successfully graduated from recognized university from an accredited Engineering program. And a second possible scenario is if someone's managed to pass all the Professional Engineer's examinations independently (rare).

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#236

Post by blazespin » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:45 PM UTC

MCRed wrote: post #93

blazespin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias. I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

"most bright engineers were promoted into management so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright." Just wow. Quite a bit of agism there. In my experience most CEOs are not technical, and thy want "business guys" in management. This ranges from big companies (my manager at Amazon had a criminal justice degree and could barely operate a computer, and his IQ was less than 100) to startups (often the CTO will be…

It's the opposite of ageism. Try re-reading what I said.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#237

Post by mgkimsal » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:45 PM UTC

ownagefool wrote: post #201

isomorphic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm over 40 and I've always worked as a consultant. Until recently I was the sole developer on a site doing eight figures in revenue (now I'm team lead). Without being arrogant here, if my skills match but someone doesn't want my level of experience, it's not a good sign for the someone. On the flip side, I would love to throw out all of the languages and frameworks I've been using for the past few years and learn en…

The main problem with hiring grey beards, as you put it, is that a lot of them aren't amazing, but due to years, they have an authorative attitude and expect to be paid more than your 20 something devs. If it's my money, I'd hire the 20 year old with gaping holes in their knowledge who are willing and eager to learn over the 40s something dev who thinks their way is better because they're 10 years my senior. I have a…

"with gaping holes in their knowledge who are willing and eager to learn"

If you don't mind the 'learning' involving data loss, security breaches and competitive disadvantages... sure. Go for it.

I say this as someone who did learning 20+ years ago, and have lost data, had security issues, and had many of the issues that come with learning technology (and business). My employers and clients absorbed part of those learning costs. But make no mistake about it, we all paid a price for those mistakes. You also will pay something extra for hiring those who are "willing and eager to learn" - it's just the nature of the beast.

Thinking that price is the only factor, and that maybe someone will take "a bit longer" to get something done is naive.

"I've rejected folks who were lacking a basic understanding of the pro's and con's of something...This, I postulate, is generally because these guys have 10 years of 1 years experience".

Did you bother to be honest with them about why you "rejected" these folks?

I'm one of those "40 somethings" who don't always think "my way" is better, but I can generally tell you why "your way" is crap, what it'll cost in the short and long term, and what the less crappy options are. I don't generally have a single "my way" because rarely does one approach fit even most problems well.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#238

Post by blazespin » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:45 PM UTC

derrekl wrote: post #88

blazespin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias. I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

Interestingly nearly all the guys over 40 I know who are "senior" devs never wanted to go into management. They just said "no!". They are solid reliable devs. They are all doing fine. But then again so are all the guys who went into management. (Sorry, I write "guys" all the time 'cause I grew up in the midwest - not trying to make it all about males)

I was talking past tense, as I said, things have changed. Does no one read here?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#239

Post by blazespin » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:46 PM UTC

mibbitirc wrote: post #135

blazespin wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big problem was that most bright engineers were promoted into management, so the ones left programming at 40 weren't so bright. So not so much that age killed the skills, it's just a selection bias. I think we've got better at that and bright engineers are just being promoted into senior engineers, so hopefully it's fixing the selection bias.

IMHO It's more usually bad developers who get promoted into management, so they can do less damage.

That wasn't so in the past. There was no great career track for developers other than management. This has changed onlly relatively recently.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#240

Post by czep » Sun, Apr 12, 2015, 3:53 PM UTC

danieltillett wrote: post #184

psaintla wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you have a very fluid workflow youth is very attractive. i.e. you don't bother to spend an hour to plan a project. I don't think anyone wants to work at those kinds of places, young or old.

It is not a matter of planning, but of adapting to change. I have worked in environments where change occurred regularly (outside forces at work) and I saw it was the young who coped with this change best.

I've seen the exact opposite. Startup, pivoted 3x in 3 years. The younger devs have a much harder time accepting he pivot and figuring out how to adapt. So without any more substantive evidence, my experience definitely refutes this silly argument that youth is more flexible.