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Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

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Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#231

Post by jd0 »

gametheoretic wrote: post #189
patrickg_zill wrote: post #27

Some geeky types will be tempted, upon founding a startup, to thus not have ANY women in significant roles in the company, and to keep it as guys-only as possible; outsourcing as needed and doing the other legal legwork as required to stay under the headcount (is it >50 people?) to avoid the EEOC.

I'll be more than tempted. To be 100% honest, I have that thought every single time I read any article or blog post about sexism in tech. If programmers with a Y-chromosome are exponentially less likely to either sue us or get us labelled sexist jerks in the press, then that's who we're hiring.

To use a metaphor you might understand I think you're programming around the bug instead of debugging.

Maybe, shocking as it is, women are reacting to real injustices in these cases that you read about in "any article or blog post about sexism in tech". If your immediate reaction to someone being called out for sexism is to distance yourself from women, have you ever considered that perhaps your attitude is sexist? You're assuming in all scenarios that the man is right and being attacked unfairly, disregarding evidence.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#232

Post by pantalaimon »

lutusp wrote: post #143
LockeWatts wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what does the noun change? You completely lost me.

> Wait, what does the noun change? Are you still a boy? Yes or no? How about a black man? Is he appropriately described as a "boy" or do you value your life?

Are you implying that black people are inherently violent and will murder you if you do them wrong?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#233

Post by enneff »

chanux wrote: post #226
yeukhon wrote: post #183

There seems to be several problems. Not entirely sexism. 1. Founder's wife asked Horvath out and gave her a lecture about who is the boss. Probably out of jealousy. 2. Founder's wife physically inanimate Horvath, making her unwelcome and scared. 3. Founder did not stop the wife and protect his wife. 4. Horvath was approached by a male co-worker and according to her her rejection had caused tension between her and tha…

I, as a male, try to avoid staring at another female because I fear someone like Horvath accuses me of sexism. This is, sadly, the best thing to do because you don't know who is going to take offense. PS: To avoid looking one-sided and narrow (which I believe I'm not) I really feel bad about this whole situation and the lady who had to go through that. Personally liked a github as a company.

I try to avoid staring at people because my parents taught me that it's rude to stare.

That's not to say that I don't admire people that I find attractive. I just do it subtly to avoid making people feel uncomfortable.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#234

Post by lancewiggs »

MarkTee wrote: post #175
Aqueous wrote: post #120

I'm not entirely sure the hula-hooping incident - merely observing girls hula hooping is not a crime, is it? - by itself constitutes a hostile atmosphere for women, unless inappropriate comments were being made. What we have here is some completely inappropriate, cloak and dagger, soap opera shit being perpetrated by the wife of the cofounder, who has no business meddling in the affairs of his employees. (If true, th…

I don't know what the day-to-day is like at GitHub, but if people were hula-hooping to music at my place of work, I'd probably be pretty interested in watching them too (male or female).

It's not what or whether they were watching, it's how they were watching. It's a judgement call but pretty easy to tell if a group is leering or just watching friends have fun.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#235

Post by sgentle »

Ouch. What a terrible situation. I'm holding out for the other side of the story, but unless you're willing to assume the entire thing is invented this is a major fuckup for GitHub.

I think this is a classic problem with companies making the transition from small startup to regular business. Break down the barriers! Flat management! Kill bureaucracy and embrace no-politics DIY organisation!

The article reads like an HR air crash investigation. Nebulous semi-employee with unspecified responsibilities related to a founder? Check. Unclear or absent grievance chain? Check. HR alternately over- and under-involved in disputes with no clear policy? Check. Off-the-record disciplinary meetings? Check. Founder adjudicates his own grievances? Check.

And it seems like every single one of these problems could have been solved by a halfway competent manager. I mean, someone reverting your code because of a personal vendetta? Is that not like, a 5 minute conversation? "Hey, Jo, Dave's being an asshole and reverting my commits for no reason." "Oh, okay, I'll talk to him and make sure it stops."

I read a great article a while back that I unfortunately can't find now, but it talked about a CEO who thought he was having a casual "hey, I'm interested in developing my skills, can you mentor me a bit?" conversation with another exec. A week later the office was ablaze with "so-and-so being groomed as successor" rumours. At a certain point you stop being able to just act like a regular person and have everything turn out fine. Red tape isn't always a straitjacket. Sometimes it's a crash harness.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#236

Post by oh_sigh »

enneff wrote: post #179
oh_sigh wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You a liar/thief/vagabond/ruffian/scoundrel/bully/shithead/asshole/arsonist/murderer/sexist/racist. If even 10% of that is true, it is a serious allegation against you. You are not to be trusted.

My point was not so much about the veracity of the claims, but rather as a comment on the severity of the issue (true or not).

Is there any value in commenting on the severity of the issue in such a manner?

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#237

Post by jd0 »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #27

Some geeky types will be tempted, upon founding a startup, to thus not have ANY women in significant roles in the company, and to keep it as guys-only as possible; outsourcing as needed and doing the other legal legwork as required to stay under the headcount (is it >50 people?) to avoid the EEOC.

This is the sort of fucked up attitude that's turning the public increasingly against the tech industry. The attitude seems to be "we can do anything that we want, because we're smart and we know the loopholes"

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#238

Post by [deleted] »

csense wrote: post #64

I don't think this was an instance of institutionalized sexism. Rather, the founder's wife seems like an unbalanced individual, and nobody effectively set any boundaries. The other founders and HR seemed unaware or unable to set the situation to right. As for her romantically inclined co-worker -- I don't see how his behavior qualifies as sexist or hostile. Merely a bit clueless, but isn't it to be expected that empl…

[deleted]

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#239

Post by unfunco »

rdl wrote: post #91
patrickg_zill wrote: post #27

Some geeky types will be tempted, upon founding a startup, to thus not have ANY women in significant roles in the company, and to keep it as guys-only as possible; outsourcing as needed and doing the other legal legwork as required to stay under the headcount (is it >50 people?) to avoid the EEOC.

I'd rather just have a "zero fuckwits rule" in hiring. It sounds like Github breached that rule, leading to this problem. You could possibly avoid all sexual harassment by having only men in the workplace, but if they were still fuckwits and assholes, you'd have other employment problems.

Spotting a fuckwit during a best-behaviour interview is difficult.

Re: Julie Ann Horvath Describes Sexism and Intimidation Behind Her GitHub Exit

#240

Post by retrogradeorbit »

lgleason wrote: post #216
retrogradeorbit wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nor in Australia, is HR your friend. I had a very similar situation to this, as a male, in a software development environment. Even down to the bullying and the silently deleted files and commits. The thing I learnt about HR is they are not professionals. They do not exist to perform the professional duties associated with Human Resources. They may tell you and themselves that, but they are the formalised face (at an…

I do agree that the bullies will be protected and promoted. Unfortunately the legal action doesn't really solve the problem. Usually the companies just find loopholes around whatever they were sued for an it is business as usual. For most companies once you get large enough the question is not if you will be sued, but when you will be sued. The incentives need to be changed to change the system.....which would mean a…

In my experience they usually settle pre-trial. They did in my case. Especially if the litigant has a strong case. Better to pay out than to risk a negative judgement.

The point is that questions get asked at a high level and internal changes can be triggered by a pre-trial settlement. As I said, it's the only thing people like that understand. They won't take you seriously unless you take their money.

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