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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#231

Post by mmcnl »

rubymamis wrote: post #144
wiseowise wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason why I would install native application is if it's the only way of distribution and I absolutely NEED to use it (banking, government, etc.), for everything else if it's not in a browser - it doesn't exist to me. Native applications might offer marginal performance boost, but given how optimized modern web is and how powerful are devices that I use - that's not an argument to me unless I do something co…

I highly disagree. Web apps are notoriously slow. I'm developing a Notion alternative in Qt C++ that load large text files on my 2017 MacBook Air while on my friend's 2021 M1 Pro, the fastest web based block editor (MarkText) takes around 11x longer to load the same file. So, essentialy, my 2017 MacBook Air is FASTER just due to more efficient software. Why are we allowing this degradation of software? Each time I th…

Nitpicking, but Tauri is still in beta for mobile, Capacitor is the incumbent. But these frameworks solely exist because the mobile OS doesn't provide sufficient access to native APIs. If PWAs would be supported properly, and the standard would evolve, then we wouldn't need Tauri or Capacitor. The web-to-native bridge would be part of the web engine that is installed on the OS.

The reason we allow these native bridges (Capacitor on Mobile, Electron on Desktop) is because they allow you to develop the same app once for all platforms. Without them you would need 3x the resources for each desktop app (Windows, Linux, Desktop) and 2x the resources for each mobile app (Android, iOS). Linux would be dead in the water without Electron. It's the reason we have Spotify, Slack, Discord, VS Code, etc. on Linux.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#232

Post by bambax »

monkin wrote: post #101
bambax wrote: post #76

I made the mistake of only carrying an iPad during my most recent holidays. What a useless piece of junk this is. iPads work well enough at home to watch movies or play a couple of games, but trying to do any kind of serious work on them, either editing photos, writing something, sending files, even trying to use a sequencer is an exercise in frustration. We are sooo lucky there (still) exist alternative computing so…

You can code on it, design, edit photos, write books, sketch, edit videos... and a lot more with ease. For 3 years, I used only an iPad for work. Can you expand on your problems? Or was that a "it works differently on my beloved OS" kind of thing?

You can't install a random program. You need to go through the appstore for everything. There is no shared filesystem. Trying to export an image from a photo editing app takes a couple of seconds just to build the list of possible target apps. Everything is not only gratuitously complex, but reminds you you're not in control. You're a guest in Apple's world, instead of Apple being there to serve you.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#233

Post by fragmede »

wiseowise wrote: post #115
monkin wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can code on it, design, edit photos, write books, sketch, edit videos... and a lot more with ease. For 3 years, I used only an iPad for work. Can you expand on your problems? Or was that a "it works differently on my beloved OS" kind of thing?

> You can code on it In castrated terminal that is walking on the edge of what is "permitted" by overlords. Or are you talking about open thin IDE that connects to a remote machine in a browser?

https://vscode.dev/

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#234

Post by troupo »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #216
troupo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do I just hear the arguments again how java is slow vs c++? No, no you don't > the browser is the jvm of a web app, very secure and js engines like V8 is extremely capable And what this has to do with apps and the fact that web apps are universally slow, bloated, underperforming, and require significantly more resources to do the most primitive things than native apps? > you should also make yourself familiar with…

> No, no you don't Yeah, yeah, he does. Not only C/C++ v. Java, but before that ASM v. C/C++. > There will be no competition because lazy people and people who have never seen the world outside their web bubble will simply opt for the cheapest option. This is what most people would consider an opportunity. Get off HN and write competing apps. If these are really "lazy" developers delivering "slow and bloated" apps, y…

> Yeah, yeah, he does. Not only C/C++ v. Java, but before that ASM v. C/C++.

Argument from analogy is one of the weakest one can make. Because analogies are always incorrect.

Besides, two can play this game. I'm arguing to use cars to get from point A to point B when you're arguing to use horse-driven buggies.

> Get off HN and write competing apps. If these are really "lazy" developers delivering "slow and bloated" apps, you should have no problem kicking their asses in the marketplace.

> But you won't.

Ad hominem an kindergarten-level "I dare you" are even weaker arguments

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#235

Post by szasamasa »

crazygringo wrote: post #171

This subject was already discussed here 2 days ago (819 points, 778 comments) [1] and the top comment highlighted that Apple gives its reasoning in a way that is at least worth considering. From Apple [2]: ---- The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with th…

dma here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...

Apple cannot simply invoke DMA (50) as a free pass. For its arguments to align with the intent of the legislation, here's a roadmap of what they need to do to justify their security-based restrictions on iOS:

Apple must be transparent about the exact security issues posed by alternative browser engines with concrete instances (not merely speculative risks). They need to prove that these are unique to iOS, given the successful use of unrestricted browser engines on macOS (and every other OS).

Before opting for the extreme step of removing functionality, Apple needs to offer documentation of all the methods for managing and mitigating specific threats that were considered and subsequently ruled out as infeasible (sandboxing, enhanced APIs, etc.). This emphasizes that their actions are indeed the last resort and not merely a way to suppress competition.

The company needs to demonstrate how they would proactively work with browser engine developers to establish strong security controls and threat monitoring on par with or exceeding their current practices for native-only experiences. This shifts the focus to building a safe environment rather than merely limiting the scope of capabilities.

Apple must guarantee that if and when these security challenges are met, it will progressively expand support for unrestricted use of web standards for third-party browser engines. This creates the long-term perspective the DMA is designed to protect and gives confidence to developers investing in advanced web app solutions.

Without taking action in these key areas, Apple's reliance on this DMA portion won't hold up to regulatory scrutiny. They cannot cite generic security dangers then fall back on "practicality" arguments without robust, evidence-backed reasoning.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#236

Post by kibwen »

troupo wrote: post #230
kibwen wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, the odd take is thinking that the point of an app is to look good.

Yes. Yes, among other things the point of the app is to look good: be fluid, performant, responsive and conform to the platform look and feel and HIGs. All the things that web apps objectively fail to do.

And if I can't find the app because of the awful app store interface, and if it's stealing my information by demanding permissions that it doesn't need, and if it's showing me ads that I can't block, and if it's bothering me with constant updates, why should I care if it's "fluid"? The goal of software is not to look pretty, it's to be functional. Web apps are more functional than native apps by my metrics. I do not care if it's less fluid, because I use software to do things.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#237

Post by scarface_74 »

szasamasa wrote: post #207
scarface_74 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because Apple never breaks native apps… Do you remember when they completely removed 32 bit app support from iOS. People on HN want to make every excuse in the world for why PWAs on Android aren’t more popular and how it’s Apple’s fault.

it is not breaking native apps, it is pushing you to update your tech... currently you cannot update some code for your website to work offline on iOS like there is a competition... few companies have great websites/web apps and if a native app worked, people will not abandon it for a web version of course... the competition you claim web apps lost (even on android) has not yet even started :) in a very huge article-…

And you still haven’t answered the question - 90% of App Store revenues comes from games and I’m almost positive the same is true for Android. Wouldn’t they be motivated to use PWAs to avoid Play Store’s 30% cut if PWAs were so great on Android?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#238

Post by scarface_74 »

a13o wrote: post #206
scarface_74 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You think the casino style games are going to move to PWAs without direct access to users wallets via in app purchases? If that’s the case, why aren’t all of the same games moving to the web for Android?

The social casino space on mobile is interesting, because everyone basically accepts that their apps are a commodity. Therefore the winners are the ones with the best operations. SciPlay in particular comes to mind because they have built out their own payment processing on platforms that support it. They explicitly want to avoid headwinds from Walled Gardens making decrees. They would already have momentum if/when m…

And instead of suing Google and Apple, if the PWA experience was so good on Android, then why didn’t Epic just make FortNite a PWA?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#239

Post by scarface_74 »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #184
scarface_74 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in app purchases of loot boxes and coins. Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. If it’s only mean old Apple keeping the great world of cross platform apps using web technologies, why aren’t PWAs more popular on Android?

> Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. Except when a manager learns that they can keep Apple’s 30% if they release a PWA instead. They don’t even need to know what a PWA is, they just ask the developer if it’s possible, who says “ something something WebGL and web sockets?” The manager thinks it’s a great idea. Whether that translates to their users migrating to the new implementation could be up in the air. I suspect…

So you really think that none of these game developers or their management never heard about PWAs and if they thought they could avoid the 30% fee on Android by creating one without any loss in usage they wouldn’t do it?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#240

Post by scarface_74 »

mmcnl wrote: post #228
scarface_74 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in app purchases of loot boxes and coins. Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. If it’s only mean old Apple keeping the great world of cross platform apps using web technologies, why aren’t PWAs more popular on Android?

90% _today_. Strategic chess moves like this are about the next decade. The web is becoming more and more powerful and who says Fortnite can't run in a browser in 5 years? Especially if EU forces Apple to allow alternative browser engines that Apple can't control. It's an existential threat to the App Store model.

And what is stopping Epic from using a PWA today on Android of its just Apple holding them back?
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