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It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#221

Post by troupo »

smoldesu wrote: post #212
troupo wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well on desktop Chrome/Edge has a high enough market share that the client would not have cared. Indeed. People cry "Safari is the new IE" and then literally turn around and say "well, who cares, Chrome has dominant market share, so if it only works in Chrome, it's fine".

You need a competitive browser if you want to convince people to use it. Apple's only distribution scheme for Safari is forcibly pre-installing it on all of their devices. It's not akin to Chrome or Firefox where people deliberately install their app and weigh it against alternatives. You don't get a choice. As a reminder, United States v. Microsoft Corp. was never about IE's market share. It was about the illegal mo…

> You need a competitive browser if you want to convince people to use it.

The argument may have worked 10-15 years ago. Since then Chrome has captured majority market share (among other things deploying, clear anticompetitive practices [1]). They now dominate all the standards bodies and shit all over the standards process by shipping whatever they damn please to the sycophantic cheering from the sidelines.

So it's not "you need a competitive browser", because both Safari and Firefox are plenty competitive. It's "you need to ship whatever features Chrome ships at neck-breaking speed, all consequences be damned".

[1] Former Mozilla exec on Google sabotaging Firefox https://archive.is/tgIH9

The story of how Google drove the final nail in IE6's coffin is funny until you let the implications set in https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/4/18529381/google-youtube-in... And yes, "only works in Chrome" is a frequent enough appearance to warrant a worry.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#222

Post by troupo »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #215
troupo wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as I said: you add a P in front of web apps, suddenly as if by magic all the issues disappear. > PWAs do not need to be wrapped in a browser engine of their own, they use the installed browser engine. Ah yes, they don't need a browser engine, they just need a browser engine > They are not inherently bloated or resource-intensive in any way. So, let me get it straight. A web app running inside a web browser engin…

Web apps and Electron apps are two different things. Entirely. > So, let me get it straight. A web app running inside a web browser engine is bloated, slow, and non-performant when it's on desktop. But the moment you put it on mobile it's not? A web app doesn't require that you bundle an entire Chrome runtime with the app. There's a lot of your "bloated" right there. You've been told this several times, so it seems t…

> There's a lot of your "bloated" right there. You've been told this several times, so it seems that you're being deliberately obtuse.

I also use "web apps" in the browser. I struggle to find a single one that doesn't fit the description. Well, I know some, but when ask people like you to give examples, there's either silence or some ridiculous thing that only proves my point.

> I. Just. Don't. Care.

Indeed

> I'm old enough to remember the exact same "slow and bloated" crapola when programs written in C

Non-sequitur

> If you don't want to use web apps, or Electron apps, don't use them.

I would if devs like you didn't have your attitude of not caring and shipped other than shit

> Better yet, write your own "fast and slim" apps and take away the market for the "slow and bloated" ones.

What's stopping you from creating such apps? Just your "I don't care we have supercomputers so I'll use the technology that struggles to even display some static text on it"?

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#223

Post by crazygringo »

szasamasa wrote: post #220
appplication wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious web apps could read data from other web apps and recapture their permissions to gain access to a user’s camera, microphone or location without a user’s consent. Browsers also could install web apps on the system without a user’s awareness and consent. I’m not sure I fully understand the ire at Apple here. If any of this is true, killing PWAs sounds like the…

in a hypothetical spy browser maybe :) not in any of the modern browser engines like Gecko/Firefox just be responsible and use Safari if you want the status quo or use a trusted browser engine like from a big company like Firefox/Edge/Chrome do not be fooled, you people use web capabilities including service workers on websites in all OS, you even did it with Safari on iOS if iOS had some vulnerability vs. android, w…

> in a hypothetical spy browser maybe :) not in any of the modern browser engines like Gecko/Firefox

But that's the whole point of security -- you're protecting precisely against the disguised malware, not the well-behaved software.

To say that this isn't necessary because there exist browsers that are well-behaved misses the point of security entirely.

And remember that iOS was built with a new model of security in mind from the start. They don't want their security guarantees becoming undone because suddenly third-party browsers can start installing things on the home screen that look like familiar apps and inherit all sorts of permissions.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#224

Post by philistine »

a13o wrote: post #185
TheFuzzball wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can tell that the App Store wasn't planned that early because if it was the earlier Apple apps would have been using the APIs that needed to be implemented and documented for the first App Store, and they didn't. Apple today is very different from the Apple that launched the iPhone and the original App Store - they started off thinking all apps could be PWAs, but the Web Platform wasn't mature enough at th…

In the Gamecraft podcast, Mitch Lasky shares an anecdote about Apple asking his team to make apps for the iPod in 2005. Apple then calls them back in 2006 to make games for an 'App Store' on the iPod. Mitch claims this was all a trial run for how an app store would work on the iPhone. [1] This interaction was with Tony Fadell who had been involved with an Apple smartphone since 2004. The iPhone App Store would launch…

You’re kind of rewriting history there. App Stores were plentiful on other smartphones. Apple might have needed internal practice, but they knew how the business would work.

And Tony Fadell famously lost the job of making the iPhone. His idea was to use the OS used in the iPods. Jobs instead chose to minify macOS. Fadell then kind of lost his political grip at Apple and left afterwards.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#225

Post by philistine »

alsetmusic wrote: post #198
chii wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Apple did not want to risk letting that happen. they've already shown a shadow of their true colors when they banned flash under the guise of security (which is also a problem, but for which apple conveniently uses as an excuse). This is their true intention. The app store and the easy revenue from those sales are just not something they'll willingly give up.

Steve Jobs's "Thoughts on Flash," was written when I was a tech at an Apple Store. I remember pulling up crash logs on a customer's computer and showing her over and over that Flash was related to Safari crashing. Flash was garbage on the Mac. Blocking (or not implementing) it on the phone wasn't a grand conspiracy. It was smart business. I'm not denying that they're predatory with the App Store. I'm saying that not…

People honestly believed that Apple could have flipped a switch and make Flash work on iPhone. It was garbage, which couldn’t run on such a puny processor without butchering your battery. Most people were using it for video anyway, and H.264 playback on the browser was well on its way.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#226

Post by mmcnl »

anon373839 wrote: post #14

> It’s telling that this is the feature that Apple refused to share. And it makes sense: the idea that users could install safe and secure apps that Apple can’t tax, block or control is terrifying to them. I think that’s what this decision is all about. When Safari was the only browser engine on iOS, PWAs didn’t threaten the App Store because Safari delivers a degraded experience with them. With alternative browser e…

Exactly. It's a loophole in their alternative App Store model so they closed it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#227

Post by philistine »

marcus0x62 wrote: post #148
chii wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Apple did not want to risk letting that happen. they've already shown a shadow of their true colors when they banned flash under the guise of security (which is also a problem, but for which apple conveniently uses as an excuse). This is their true intention. The app store and the easy revenue from those sales are just not something they'll willingly give up.

Flash was a security dumpster fire and wasn't designed for touch interfaces. That said, I don't think Apple - or any other vendor - should be able to prohibit users from running software on devices the user putatively owns. Offer an (optional) walled-garden experience, ok, but locking down users from installing their own software is predatory.

Apple never banned Adobe from making a Flash player app on iPhone. They decided against shipping it as a plug-in for Safari on iOS.

The fact that Adobe could not have made a Flash player app (imagine an app which you point an URL at to load its Flash content) helps explains the problem.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#228

Post by mmcnl »

scarface_74 wrote: post #172
anon373839 wrote: post #14

> It’s telling that this is the feature that Apple refused to share. And it makes sense: the idea that users could install safe and secure apps that Apple can’t tax, block or control is terrifying to them. I think that’s what this decision is all about. When Safari was the only browser engine on iOS, PWAs didn’t threaten the App Store because Safari delivers a degraded experience with them. With alternative browser e…

Everyone thinks that Apple really cares if you use PWAs? It came out in the Epic trial that 90% of the App Store revenue comes from pay to win games and in app purchases of loot boxes and coins. Those apps aren’t going to be PWAs. If it’s only mean old Apple keeping the great world of cross platform apps using web technologies, why aren’t PWAs more popular on Android?

90% _today_. Strategic chess moves like this are about the next decade. The web is becoming more and more powerful and who says Fortnite can't run in a browser in 5 years? Especially if EU forces Apple to allow alternative browser engines that Apple can't control. It's an existential threat to the App Store model.

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#229

Post by bambax »

caskstrength wrote: post #165
bambax wrote: post #76

I made the mistake of only carrying an iPad during my most recent holidays. What a useless piece of junk this is. iPads work well enough at home to watch movies or play a couple of games, but trying to do any kind of serious work on them, either editing photos, writing something, sending files, even trying to use a sequencer is an exercise in frustration. We are sooo lucky there (still) exist alternative computing so…

> Apple is the evilest of evils. It must be fought with great determination if we are concerned with freedom. Continuing using Apple products while periodically expressing your frustration on Reddit/HN is not a good way to "fight" Apple. Consider using PC with Linux or something.

Yes, hence "mistake". (Also I only buy products second hand.)

Re: It’s Official, Apple Kills Web Apps in the EU

#230

Post by troupo »

kibwen wrote: post #174
manuelabeledo wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an odd take. Native apps are usually just better looking and more performant.

To me, the odd take is thinking that the point of an app is to look good.

Yes. Yes, among other things the point of the app is to look good: be fluid, performant, responsive and conform to the platform look and feel and HIGs.

All the things that web apps objectively fail to do.

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