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"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

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Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#231

Post by Tossrock »

rdl wrote: post #89
jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

I disagree. Based on time in a Roadster, and what I've seen of the model s, I would be totally happy with the S in the bay area, and either rent or keep a second car for trips out of the bay. With a constant level of tech, sure, the city car makes more sense, but assuming you can afford the high tech batteries, the tesla seems like a great car for how Americans use cars. If I weren't getting a model s, I'd probably g…

Carpool lanes are two people in the Bay Area. Did you mean you had zero rather than one companions, or were you unaware of the law?

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#232

Post by atourgates »

bane wrote: post #144
jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

I think you and Tesla are not having the same conversation. They are doing it The Wrong Way if the conversation is efficient commuter/city cars. But tanks are doing it The Wrong Way if you're talking about space launch vehicles too. Tesla doesn't market or really care about efficiency -- and Tesla buyers don't really care about efficiency (or at least not as their #1 priority, if they did there are plenty of high eff…

Precisely.

The Leaf and other small commuter cars are fantastic for people who don't give a shit about cars, and really care about the environment / gas prices. That's a great market, but it's a completely different market than the one Tesla is going after.

The Roadster is basically an electric Lotus. And there's no-one that's going to say to themselves, "You know what would make good financial sense? Replacing my Civic with a goddamn electric race car." It's not about price or energy or the planet, it's about something unique and fun, a luxury good. I expect that there is close to zero overlap between potential Tesla Roadster and potential Leaf buyers.

The Model S changes the dynamic a bit, but it's still not competing with the Leaf and other city cars. And most importantly, it will appeal to people (like me) who love cars. It's unsual, but extends beyond sports-car novelty into something that could easily be the primary vehicle for a family of 4 - or even more with the rear-facing 3rd row seat. Hell, if I was in the market for a high-end sedan, the Model S would be far and away my first choice. For about the price of a 7-series, you get something entirely new and unique in the automotive world.

Both Nissan and Tesla's attempts at popularizing electric vehicles have sensible business models behind them, they're just very different vehicles aimed at very different demographics.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#233

Post by aidenn0 »

URSpider94 wrote: post #49
noonespecial wrote: post #5

Could this really not be prevented by a $10 microcontroller and a big-ass relay to just disconnect the battery if it reaches a certain discharge state? Even my iPhone can turn turtle to protect its battery when it gets too low. Also how much power does it take to keep the damn thing plugged in? The article indicates that a 100 foot extension cord isn't enough just to break even and the car discharges even when plugge…

Could this really not be prevented by a $10 microcontroller and a big-ass relay to just disconnect the battery if it reaches a certain discharge state? Not necessarily. This might help, but the battery will also have self-discharge, meaning that it can lose charge without being connected to any load at all. If you get the charge down low enough, and then wait long enough, then even a full disconnect from the system w…

LiIon cells have virtually zero self-discharge. It is the battery management system that contributes nearly all of the self-discharge to a LiIon battery. You could have such a relay, but it would require some additional tools to recover from such a state (needs to get the BMS in a happy state, or the BMS itself must have the ability to charge the battery from an unknown state).

This all would seem to make sense to install though, it's far better to have a pack that needs a reset in the shop then a brick, esp. as the battery pack in the model S will make up nearly all of the resale value of the vehicle.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#234

Post by eropple »

chc wrote: post #211
eropple wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't consider the money wasted. I wonder if the people shelling out $40,000 for a battery replacement agree with you.

Even if all five or so became violent opponents of Tesla (which seems plausible enough, I guess), that would be greater than 99% approval among users. I don't mean to downplay the severity of that issue, but I feel like this comment is more of a cheap shot "zinger" than a legitimate attempt to show that Tesla's efforts are wasted (especially given that the problem seems to be endemic to modern battery technology, not…

It's endemic to modern battery technology, but not modern battery implementations. Tesla's technology is unquestionably excellent. Consideration of use cases--or, you know, consideration of the customer forking over a ton of money for their vehicles--not so much.

If there is a case where you can, by design, cause somebody who just bought a ridiculously expensive car to incur a $40,000 battery replacement bill, you'd better have ways to counteract the problem. They apparently don't (aside from "stalk your car and charge it"); it doesn't sound like they even warn purchasers about the danger of flatlining the battery.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#236

Post by alephnil »

rbanffy wrote: post #170
3am wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are precisely wrong. Targeting people that already buy into energy efficiency has low payoff. Say you have your enlightened urban dweller, getting 50mpg. With the fancy new hybrids, let's say they double that and get 100mpg. Given 100K miles of driving, that saves 1000 gallons of fuel. Now, take your suburbanite SUV driver getting 20mpg. You only have to get their mileage to 25mpg to save the same amount of fuel…

Biofuels are definitely not in their infancy. My first car ran on ethanol and it was in the mid 80's. The technology in very mature.

In fact it is so mature that what we today call biofuels was what e.g Rudolf Diesel envisioned that his engines would run on, and the prototypes used for fuel. (He also thought of coal dust)

The problem is not the fuel itself, but the possibility to scale up production. Petroleum is available in vast quantities compared to all biofuel feedstocks. Most biofuels today compete with food production, or are not very developed, like cellulose. Even cellulose would have a hard time scale to the sufficient quantities if all the technical problems were solved.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#237

Post by krschultz »

onemoreact wrote: post #215
krschultz wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right about the major car companies - Nissan, GM, Mitsubishi, et al. They are definitely doing it right and aiming at a good segment. I think you are wrong about Tesla's segment. I know a couple of Tesla owners. All of them have a stable of cars. I would bet the average Tesla owner has >2 sports cars, and absolutely has more cars than the number of drivers in the family. The whole idea of 'range anxie…

If it's sitting there for weeks why not just leave it plugged into an extension cord? In a collection a Tesla can sit plugged in for longer than a combustion engine can sit with a full tank of gas so it's really a question of slightly different needs for long term storage.

That's certainly true, there is not reason the cars can't be properly stored. I'm just saying it's easy to forget about it. A lot of people don't touch the sports cars during the winter and if you forget to plug it in, you won't notice for months (and at that point it is too late). A daily driver will never be forgotten about for months on end.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#238

Post by rwallace »

schiffern wrote: post #163
philwelch wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go even further and say that energy efficiency fundamentally can't be reached by carrying individual 100-300 pound humans around in 1000-2000 pound vehicles.

Unfortunately people aren't very inclined to ride velomobiles on the same roads as Hummers and Escalades.

Which makes it all the more important to find a way to get the Hummers and Escalades off the bloody roads.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#239

Post by philwelch »

schiffern wrote: post #163
philwelch wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go even further and say that energy efficiency fundamentally can't be reached by carrying individual 100-300 pound humans around in 1000-2000 pound vehicles.

Unfortunately people aren't very inclined to ride velomobiles on the same roads as Hummers and Escalades.

Fortunately, no one suggested velomobiles as a solution to this problem.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#240

Post by chc »

eropple wrote: post #234
chc wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if all five or so became violent opponents of Tesla (which seems plausible enough, I guess), that would be greater than 99% approval among users. I don't mean to downplay the severity of that issue, but I feel like this comment is more of a cheap shot "zinger" than a legitimate attempt to show that Tesla's efforts are wasted (especially given that the problem seems to be endemic to modern battery technology, not…

It's endemic to modern battery technology, but not modern battery implementations. Tesla's technology is unquestionably excellent. Consideration of use cases--or, you know, consideration of the customer forking over a ton of money for their vehicles --not so much. If there is a case where you can, by design , cause somebody who just bought a ridiculously expensive car to incur a $40,000 battery replacement bill, you'…

Uh, OK? Nobody's disagreeing with you that the battery situation sucks. I still don't understand what that has to do with what SeanLuke or potatolicious said. Are you seriously saying the company's efforts are all for naught because of a severe issue in early models experienced so far by a tiny minority of early (wealthy) purchasers that could be fixed to many people's satisfaction at any time by the company just deciding to cover it? I mean, Ford made cars so defective they killed people, but I don't hear people saying everything Henry Ford did is pointless.
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