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"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

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Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#141

Post by SeanLuke »

SeanLuke wrote: post #106
jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

> Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Completely disagree. Tesla is, I think, unquestionably the most impactful company in the game, including GE and Nissan. For two reasons. First, before Tesla people thought of electric vehicles as ridiculous DIY golf carts driven by treehuggers. They were utterly uncool and stupid. P…

Er....

GE -> GM

It's late at night. :-)

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#142

Post by schiffern »

modeless wrote: post #7
fleitz wrote: post #4

Every laptop that uses a lithium ion battery should have this problem. Oddly enough every laptop manufacture has included circuitry that cuts battery power when it reaches 5% (when the OS reports 0% it's actually ~1-5%). Tesla should have no problem fixing this, the onboard electronics will die anyway when the battery dies so why not have them die a few hours earlier and allow 'recovery' by charging the vehicle.

Batteries self-discharge, even when disconnected. 5% is probably not enough to last months, especially if the car is exposed to high temperatures.

I would be amazed if Tesla Motors was running that pack at 90% depth of discharge. 80% is far more typical.

The other thing to consider is that as the voltage drops, so does the leakage current.

Really, this whole thing could be solved by putting a tiny solar panel on the back dash.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#143

Post by spullara »

5 cars out of 2200 doesn't really qualify as a devastating problem. The insurance for this for the fleet would probably run about $200/car based on a 100% profit for the insurer. Instead, charge $10/month per car and you are probably way ahead. If you have a Tesla and I get at least 100 people responding, I will do it for $20/month at my much smaller scale than a normal insurance company.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#144

Post by bane »

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

I think you and Tesla are not having the same conversation. They are doing it The Wrong Way if the conversation is efficient commuter/city cars. But tanks are doing it The Wrong Way if you're talking about space launch vehicles too.

Tesla doesn't market or really care about efficiency -- and Tesla buyers don't really care about efficiency (or at least not as their #1 priority, if they did there are plenty of high efficiency 3 wheel'd electric solar powered bio-diesel gold carts sitting in junk yards that they could have been buying).

Tesla cars are about instant torque and speed, offered only by electric motors, without all the baggage and compromise that comes from an efficiency econobox (read: nerdmobile).

Nobody else is doing that. People who buy Teslas, and who are interested in Teslas, don't want 0-60 in 14 seconds but great gas mileage, they want it in 2 seconds and great gas mileage.

Now if you want to talk about a family sedan that can smoke a Ferrari, has room for golf clubs, and is practical enough to take to the beach, grocery shopping and carry 3 or 4 of my friends to a movie, regardless of the how it spins the tires? Then you are in the right conversation.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#145

Post by verelo »

Honestly, these cares look great and are all electric. Two things that i want in my next car. When i think electric car, i don't think of Ford, Nisan or any other generic (GM) brand. These guys pulled us from the dark ages of fuel (and the slightly brighter yet still dark ages of Hybrid cars) into the 21st century with a car that runs on electricity alone.

With that in mind, the issue of a "Brick" isn't something I want...but if it can be solved then I'm all up for this being my next car. Is there any evidence that this same issue cant occur in the other main stream electric cars coming onto the market anyway?

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#146

Post by Tooluka »

> A service manager then informed him that “it’s a brick” and that the battery would cost approximately $40,000 to replace. He was further told that this was a special “friends and family” price, strongly implying that Tesla generally charges more.

> $40,000 (or more) to fix his car

> full $40,000-plus cost

> At the same time, the Model S pricing starts at $49,900 (after US tax incentives), broadening the market to households of far more modest means than the owners of the $109,000 and up Roadster. This in turn makes it even less likely that Tesla buyers will have the necessary tens of thousands of dollars to spare if they ever allow their battery to fully discharge. ("Implying that battery cost will be the same as for Roadster, car that costs 2.5 times more")

Statements like this are generally bad for an article that tries to operate with facts.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#147

Post by rganguly »

spullara wrote: post #143

5 cars out of 2200 doesn't really qualify as a devastating problem. The insurance for this for the fleet would probably run about $200/car based on a 100% profit for the insurer. Instead, charge $10/month per car and you are probably way ahead. If you have a Tesla and I get at least 100 people responding, I will do it for $20/month at my much smaller scale than a normal insurance company.

Funny, I saw the Tesla problem and immediately thought to myself that there might be an interesting arbitrage oppty. If your car's been bricked and you don't want to fork out $40k, is it possible you'd sell the car for some $$ to a person willing to buy the new battery and get a discount to retail?

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#148

Post by huhtenberg »

run4yourlives wrote: post #105
huhtenberg wrote: post #87

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and…

Unless BMW's are using some "buy only at BMW" type of design, a battery at costco will probably run you $100.

Yeah, it's an OEM thing with a built-in micro controller, karma enhancer and god knows what else. Available from BMW only.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#149

Post by [deleted] »

run4yourlives wrote: post #105
huhtenberg wrote: post #87

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and…

Unless BMW's are using some "buy only at BMW" type of design, a battery at costco will probably run you $100.

[deleted]

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#150

Post by [deleted] »

run4yourlives wrote: post #105
huhtenberg wrote: post #87

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and…

Unless BMW's are using some "buy only at BMW" type of design, a battery at costco will probably run you $100.

[deleted]
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