"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#91

Post by 3am » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:48 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

You are precisely wrong. Targeting people that already buy into energy efficiency has low payoff.

Say you have your enlightened urban dweller, getting 50mpg. With the fancy new hybrids, let's say they double that and get 100mpg. Given 100K miles of driving, that saves 1000 gallons of fuel.

Now, take your suburbanite SUV driver getting 20mpg. You only have to get their mileage to 25mpg to save the same amount of fuel over 100K miles. Get them to 40mpg, and the improvement is 150% greater than the urbanite's.

Further, only electric vehicles are can realistically be 100% powered from renewables with current technology. Biofuels are in their infancy vs solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear.

Thank goodness for Tesla trying to push boundaries and for the early adopters that are buying them. Also, thank goodness for the Nissan Leaf, the Honda Civic GX, the Prius, and all the people making a difference and buying fuel efficient cars. It's a big problem and there's no "Wrong Way" to be helping.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#92

Post by notatoad » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:48 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

Tesla are targeting the customers willing to spend upwards of 50k on a car. The other people selling electric cars are targeting the people who would normally spend less than 20k on a car. An electric car is the features of a small city car, but not the price. There's something to be said for targeting both sets of potential customers.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#93

Post by lhnn » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:49 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

I enjoy my Ford Bronco. I also enjoy my 35+ mpg V-Star. When a new, 30+ car comes out under $10k, pm me.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#94

Post by spankalee » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:49 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

Tesla is trying to run and end around on the entire auto industry while trying to turn a profit as a car manufacturer startup. I can't imagine many more difficult markets to break into. Can you blame them if they're trying something different? By aiming for the luxury market, they're going for lower-volume, higher-margin products, building a coveted brand, and are able to offer longer ranges than Nissan. Sounds like a good strategy to me.

They don't have time to "sit it out", or money to lobby, they need to become established in brand and sales as quickly as possible. If they wait till electric cars are mainstream, it'll be too late to break the stranglehold that large car companies have on the market.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#95

Post by lhnn » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:51 AM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #87

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and…

20 min per DAY? And a $700 battery? To hell with that, I'll slap a Duralast in the trunk and wire the damned thing up. But then again, I am not buying BMWs...

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#96

Post by pclark » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:52 AM UTC

3am wrote: post #91

jdietrich wrote: post #75

Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them, because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency. Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan. All of these big…

You are precisely wrong. Targeting people that already buy into energy efficiency has low payoff. Say you have your enlightened urban dweller, getting 50mpg. With the fancy new hybrids, let's say they double that and get 100mpg. Given 100K miles of driving, that saves 1000 gallons of fuel. Now, take your suburbanite SUV driver getting 20mpg. You only have to get their mileage to 25mpg to save the same amount of fuel…

The point OP is making is that these SUV people fundamentally do not care about efficiency - if they do not care, they have no interest in optimising their milage. The messaging is mostly wasted.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#97

Post by jonknee » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #87

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and…

$700 for a car battery?

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#98

Post by pclark » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:54 AM UTC

r0s wrote: post #69

rdl wrote: post #64

If you leave a gasoline engine car unattended for a while, it becomes a brick, too -- you need to flush the fuel, replace the seals, etc. True, it takes more than 11 weeks, and you can usually put the transmission in neutral to tow it. This is a big problem, though. If anyone has a spare Tesla and would like someone to take care of it, I'd be happy to keep your car garaged and energized, and will only drive it 200 mi…

Don't forget the battery, leave a 'normal' battery through a few months and it's dead. What happens to a normal car once all the fuel is drained? Coolant? Oil? How did these design flaws make it out of engineering?!

You can comfortably leave a regular car alone for 6 months and when you return at worst the battery will be flat and there'll be some rust on the brake pads. I regularly do this to my poor old diesel SEAT. Even if the battery is flat I can either bump start it, or worst comes to worst, buy a new $50 battery.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#99

Post by dhbanes » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 4:57 AM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #87

Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW. Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it. Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while driving unless the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and…

$700? I suppose you also have BMW fill up your tank at $20/gallon.

Re: "It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem

#100

Post by pclark » Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 5:00 AM UTC

My confusion with Tesla is this: around the rest of the world - outside of USA - there are already very fuel efficient automobiles. 60, 80, even 90 miles per gallon are common and applauded in Europe.

America has the opposite approach and appears to optimise for size, comfort and perceived safety. (SUVs, Trucks, large saloons.)

None of the things American consumers appear to value are correlated in the Tesla. When I look at the Tesla brand, product and marketing, all I can think is how popular this car would be in Europe. Just me? Why USA first?