Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown • Hacker News Board

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#231

Post by hiddencost » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #142

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…

These lessons have been chucked out the window by second tier (e.g., GM/Cruise) and third tier (e.g. Tesla and Uber) competitors, who have recognized that the only way they can hope to catch up is by gambling that what happened to Uber won't happen to them.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#232

Post by masklinn » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

> I am astounded that software capable of these outputs is allowed on the roads.

'murica

No, seriously, when California decided to increase reporting requirements a few years back Arizona reminded everyone you could run any shitbox with no requirements.

That same year, Elaine Herzberg would be run over by an uber self-driving shitbox, in Arizona.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#233

Post by dundarious » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

oneplane wrote: post #179

roywiggins wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are pretty stringent laws against drunk driving in most places... if Tesla's "self driving" modes are that bad then they should be equally illegal

A law doesn't prevent anything, it only applies after the fact. You could argue that the prospect of being prosecuted might scare people into not doing the thing that they are not allowed to be doing, but with all the people doing the things they are not allowed to be doing anyway, I doubt a comparative legal argument helps here. You could make a law that states that your FSD has to be at least as good as humans. Tha…

Tesla’s “FSD” is only a little bit better than drunk drivers, whom we punish severely whenever caught, even before any accident occurs.

The fact that enforcement is patchy is irrelevant — drunk driving is deemed serious enough to be an automatic infraction.

Also, most of the time drunk drivers are not actually that bad at moment-to-moment driving. That’s why almost everyone worldwide used to do it! You can still do the basics even when reasonably drunk. That doesn’t make you safe to drive. It’s still incredibly dangerous to do.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#234

Post by plausibledeny » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

This is Fifth Ave and Lenora in Seattle (about a block away from Amazon Spheres). Lenora is a one-way and you can take a right off of 5th onto Lenora (basically heading toward the water). The signage (and road in general) is confusing because of the monorail pylons.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#235

Post by sam0x17 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #142

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…

To echo this, as someone who has done some work with formal specifications, I have to say it seems like the self-driving car folks are taking a "move fast and break things" approach across the board, which is horrifying.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#236

Post by simion314 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

Draiken wrote: post #194

roywiggins wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are pretty stringent laws against drunk driving in most places... if Tesla's "self driving" modes are that bad then they should be equally illegal

Genuinely curious: how would you even go about advancing autonomous driving without testing it in the streets? I'm absolutely certain that they've attempted to simulate millions of hours of driving, yet this odd behavior happened in real life, which now can be studied and fixed. If we never had the software on the wild, how would you ever really test it?

>Genuinely curious: how would you even go about advancing autonomous driving without testing it in the streets?

Genuine response:

1 don't let customers do the testing, especially if you don't train them (I mean real training about failures not PR videos and tweets and some small letter manual with disclaimers)

2 use employees, train drivers to test, have some cameras to check the driver to make sure he pays attention.

3 postpone testing until the hardware and software is good enough so you don't ignore static objects.

4 make sure you don't do monthly updates that invalidates all your previous tests.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#237

Post by bhauer » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #77

ChrisKnott wrote: post #63

Maximise the video and watch the left hand HUD pane from 0:10 to 0:11. The dotted black line coming from the front of the car (which I am assuming is the intended route) quickly snaps from straight ahead, to a hair pin right, to a normal right turn. Ignoring the fact that the right turn happened to be into a pedestrian crossing with people on it - what was the car even trying to do? The sat-nav shows it should have j…

On the one hand I applaud Tesla for being so open about what their system is thinking with their visualisations. That could be interpreted to show a deep belief in their system's capabilities. On the other hand, it's always terrified me how jittery any version of AutoPilot's perception of the world is. Would you let your car be driven by someone with zero object permanence, 10/20 vision and only a vague idea of the e…

Presumably you are aware that the visualization you see in any retail car is old software, and several iterations behind what the linked video is about (FSD Beta v10). Plus the visualization is quite a bit different (and in many ways simplified) versus what's used for the actual piloting in retail vehicles.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#238

Post by sleepybrett » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

mikestew wrote: post #144

josefresco wrote: post #30

"almost hitting pedestrian" It wasn't even close. Look at where the ped is at 12 seconds, compared to the car. It's because he stopped the turn, and straightened the vehicle that the pedestrian stopped and looked up with concern (at 13 seconds). Even if the pedestrian broke out into a full run, they wouldn't have been in any real danger. This sort of close interplay between pedestrians and cars is very common in citi…

The concern I have is that the "eye contact" element is lost. As a motorcyclist, runner, and cyclist, I can tell you that drivers will look you right in the eye as they pull out in front of you. we make eye contact and look for acknowledgement or an indication of intent. That behavior stands a good chance of getting one killed or hurt, especially in Seattle, the land of "oh, no, you go first..." Look at the wheels, n…

As a seldom bicyclist I've seen this as well. But it's gotta be a lot less frequent to see a driver make eye contact and then proceed to almost kill you versus one that yields. Even as a seldom bicyclist (and as a driver even) if I'm approaching a four-way yield if I can't get eye contact with someone else approaching the intersection I'll just yield to them by default.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#239

Post by liber8 » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #225

liber8 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on my third Tesla. FSD on highways has improved so much in the last 6 years. On my first Tesla, autopilot would regularly try to kill you by running you into a gore point or median (literally once per trip on my usual commute). I now can't even remember the last time I had an issue on the highway. Anywhere else is basically a parlor trick. Yes, it sorta works, a lot of the time, but you have to monitor it so clos…

>On my first Tesla, autopilot would regularly try to kill you by running you into a gore point or median (literally once per trip on my usual commute) And people paid money for this privilege?

To be fair, it still felt like magic. My car would drive me 20 miles without me really having to do anything, other than make sure it didn't kill me at an interchange.

And I'm now trying to remember, but I think autopilot was initially free (or at least was included with every car I looked at, so it didn't seem like an extra fee). Auotpilot is now standard on all Teslas, but FSD is an extra $10k, which IMO is a joke.

Re: Video of Tesla FSD almost hitting pedestrian receives DMCA takedown

#240

Post by kempbellt » Fri, Sep 17, 2021, 5:24 PM UTC

aaroninsf wrote: post #175

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made this argument here a few times and am always shot down, but I think its important to highlight that the airline industry has an extremely robust history of automation and HCI in critical transportation scenarios and it seems to me that all the lessons that we have learned have been chucked out the window with self-driving cars. Being able to effectively reason about what the automation is doing is such an i…

Something I do not understand: there are keys difference between automation in e.g. aircraft, and what Tesla at al are failing at, e.g., how constrained the environment is; and what the exposure is to anomalous conditions is; and what the opportunity window usually is to turn control back over to a human. The thing I don't understand is, we have a much more comparable environment in ground travel: federal highways. I…

Even lower-level automation for highway driving would be super useful.

I would appreciate a simple "keep-distance-wrt-speed" function for bumper-to-bumper situations. Where worst case scenario, you rear-end a car at relatively low speeds.

I'd happily keep control over steering in this situation and just keep my foot over the brake, though lane-keep assist would probably be handy here as well. A couple radar sensors/cameras/or lidar sensors would probably be enough for basic functionality.

Disable if the steering-wheel is turned more than X degrees - maybe 20 or 25?. Disable if speed goes over X speed - maybe 15mph? Most cruise controls require a minimum speed (like 25mph) to activate.

Trying to do full driving automation, especially in a city like Seattle, is like diving into the ocean to learn how to swim.

As cool as that sounds, I'd trust incremental automation advancements much more.