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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

nltimes.nl

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#231

Post by BBC-vs-neolibs »

devcpp wrote: post #213
isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for this is that you can be compelled by your totally-not-employer to pretend to want to be a freelancer. That's why different countries have various guidelines, e.g. if you economically depend on 1 contrahent (you fill in one invoice a month to the same one company), you are not self-employed, if you can't organize your own work however you like you are not self-employed, and so on. So in general if you a…

I know some software consultants that have one major client but appreciate the work mobility and forcing them to get into a full employment contract would restrict their opportunities and payment. Forget definitions, why should we outlaw this?

We shouldn't, and no one is.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#232

Post by chrisseaton »

volkl48 wrote: post #201
chrisseaton wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably going between their homes and family / friends / shops / entertainment venues / restaurants. But in cities these places don't have parking outside. So where are they parking?

There's in excess of 100,000 public off-street parking spaces in Manhattan below 60th St (as of 2009 - Manhattan Core Parking Study). Plus street parking.

> There's in excess of 100,000 public off-street parking spaces in Manhattan

Ah I had no idea and would never have guessed that - thanks.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#233

Post by christkv »

One thing I've noticed with food delivery companies here is the obvious fraudulent identities of the delivery people. The photo shows a completely different person than the one showing up with the delivery leading me to think there is some sort of trade of delivery accounts happening to allow undocumented workers to pretend working legally with someone taking a cut of the earnings.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#234

Post by gargs »

jacquesm wrote: post #147
jb1991 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to point out, that a BV and an LLC are very different, in that anyone can have an LLC in the USA but the tax reporting requirements and overhead for a BV in NL are quite high and don't make much sense to anyone with an income less then.. well, quite high, by most standards. I know a lot of freelance software engineers in the netherlands, but none have a BV.

I know a lot of freelance software engineers in the Netherlands and quite a few of them do. BV starts to make sense from about 100K turnover because you gain some tax advantages, it also makes working for larger entities easier and it allows you to charge a higher rate and to be in an easier position to work with subcontractors. It all depends on what you want, there are plenty of ZZP'ers in software development on t…

What are those tax advantages, assuming that you're talking about income and not business expenses/investments? Why would making a BV enable you to charge higher rates if you're still the only 'employee' in the BV and have the same insurances?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#235

Post by dagw »

devcpp wrote: post #214
dagw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is stopping you from being an actual freelancer. A large point of this ruling was that people working for Uber aren't actually freelancers, since they're not free to pick their clients or set/negotiate their own prices.

Then it's stopping you from working for a company that forces you to take clients at a given price without an employment contract and all its implications. What if that's what I want? I think some Uber drivers appreciate the work mobility.

What if that's what I want?

Most places have lots of rules forbidding you from working under certain conditions or doing a job any way you want to do it.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#236

Post by claaams »

devcpp wrote: post #214
dagw wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is stopping you from being an actual freelancer. A large point of this ruling was that people working for Uber aren't actually freelancers, since they're not free to pick their clients or set/negotiate their own prices.

Then it's stopping you from working for a company that forces you to take clients at a given price without an employment contract and all its implications. What if that's what I want? I think some Uber drivers appreciate the work mobility.

"I want and like being exploited"

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#237

Post by pelorat »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #129
pelorat wrote: post #99

Wait, I live in the Netherlands and I wasn't even aware that Uber was around. Didn't they get banned years ago, with only Uber Black being allowed?

You're forgiven. I also live in the NL and I almost never see them. The last time I saw an Uber was two years ago when a friend came from the USA and wanted to use their app to call a Uber. But then again I never take taxis either. For me it's either walk, bike or OV. It might be like that for you as well, which is why you forgot they exist.

Indeed. I don't own or travel by car. I just remember reading that the "Uber Pop" app was not allowed, but Uber Black(?) was, but it was more expensive and had licensed drivers. That was many years ago.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#238

Post by iso1631 »

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #149
hungryforcodes wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if I legitimacy want to be a freelancer? Lifestyle reasons, freedom, whatever. I should have a choice.

Good luck with that, if you pay for all the mandated services, you will run a deficit. Yes people laugh off drivers as a no skill job, but it's a craft. Shift work, passenger safety and so forth, they need to pass a test, sure that's a bit outdated in the time of online maps. But I can not simply open a dentistry just because I feel so due to lifestyle choices.

I got a black cab a couple of weeks ago in London (it was chucking it down) near St Pauls. Asked to go to Nandos in Southwark.

The vaunted "knowledge" failed miserably as he pulled over to drop me off -- I looked up and saw we were just south of Tower Bridge. he clearly hadn't got a clue. I said "just take me to Southwark tube station". I know there's all sorts of one way systems but when he was heading to Bermondsey I just told him to let me out and got the tube (well tried to - Southwark was closed, so ended up at Waterloo and having to walk)

Uber just works because it's not based on a system from 1865.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#239

Post by rattray »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #90
hungryforcodes wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if I legitimacy want to be a freelancer? Lifestyle reasons, freedom, whatever. I should have a choice.

Then you're not going to do it for the money that uber pays. As a ZZP you're meant to provide for your own pension, sick leave, disability insurance. No way what Uber pays is going to cover that. This is why they're doing it of course, to avoid having to provide those things. But those are statutory rights in the Netherlands. And for good reason, otherwise if someone becomes disabled it ends up on the state's plate.…

> Then you're not going to do it for the money that uber pays.

Then, ah... who's driving the Ubers in the Netherlands and why? Is there some credible evidence of coercion at hand?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#240

Post by iso1631 »

cinntaile wrote: post #174
isodev wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, here in Belgium there are extensive requirements for taxi drivers in terms of certification, education and vehicle maintenance. That's one of the reasons Uber never really succeeded here - even as a "freelance driver", you still need to be qualified and that takes time and effort.

It's probably because it makes it difficult to dodge taxes when Uber registers all the transactions ;)

Last time I got a taxi in Belgium the card machine (advertised on the window) was "broken". C'est la vie, I just walked off.

Had that in Washington DC once, but magically the machine fixed itself when I said I had no cash and he'd have to get the police.

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