Live data from Hacker News

Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

nltimes.nl

111–120 of 500 posts

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#111

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

But what if I legitimacy want to be a freelancer? Lifestyle reasons, freedom, whatever. I should have a choice.

The reason for this is that you can be compelled by your totally-not-employer to pretend to want to be a freelancer.

That's why different countries have various guidelines, e.g. if you economically depend on 1 contrahent (you fill in one invoice a month to the same one company), you are not self-employed, if you can't organize your own work however you like you are not self-employed, and so on.

So in general if you are driving for one company and 75% revenue comes from them, you are really not a freelancer.

This was and to a degree still is a big problem in e.g. Poland, where if you are unskilled you can be compelled to accept so called "trash contracts" which deny you any employee rights, but you are cheaper to the employer who exploits you.

It might be foreign to Americans who in general have extremely poor worker protection laws (even worse than the trash contracts I mentioned), but in many other countries it doesn't really work like that.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#112
post #83
post #5

“Drivers don’t want to give up their freedom to choose if, when and where to work.” Drivers might have the freedom to turn off their phones and choose not to work, but they don't have the freedom to choose which routes/destinations. Seems to me that their argument is one-sided and deceptive.

If I hire a contractor to renovate my home to my exact specifications, by your logic they are my employee because they couldn't choose the "route" or "destination?"

They can choose to not work with you and instead work with another client that has specifications that fit better with their work.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#113
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Must is just as wrong as won't . The ideal solution is, drivers being given the choice. Wanna earn more (but less predictable), pay less tax, have less social security, work whenever you want to? Or do you want to earn less (but completely predictable), pay more tax, have unemployment security, work fixed hours.

Not sure why this comment is down voted but it's spot on. Honestly, it's pretty annoying that some people decide what others can do or can't do with their free time and their car.

The issue is that minimum employment rights are less effective in general if it’s possible to opt out of them. For lots of people, they’re not worth sacrificing earning potential for (this is one of the reasons contractors exist).

Most people wouldn’t think that a person earning a high hourly/daily rate working in some big enterprise, or a freelancer that takes home a respectable annual income is being exploited. But lots of people think that lower income gig contractors are definitely being exploited. I think the truth is actually a bit more complicated than that, but in any case, the law in most countries is that a person must not be allowed to enter into any arrangement that resembles employment if a set of minimum entitlements aren’t provided.

One way of looking at contracting arrangements is that they’re simply a way of bypassing these requirements. This never used to be a contentious issue, because contractors used to be primarily high income earners. But now that there’s a new class of lower income contractors, they must be protected, and the regulatory response has generally been to outlaw elements of contracting agreements in general.

A more sensible approach, if you wanted to achieve this outcome, would be to apply these regulations only to contractors that bill below a particular rate. But that would require making legislative concessions for high income earners, and nobody cares about doing that. I’ve been a contractor for years, and I can guarantee you that nobody is being exploited when I bill some huge bank an especially high hourly rate for months on end, but anti-contractor regulations routinely interfere with my ability to do so.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have paid the ridiculous charge from Rome's airport to the city, it's interesting how many measures airports like Rome, Madrid, Barcelona have to take to keep Uber out as good as possible. I still agree with the Dutch court. First, EU has a goal to somewhat harmonize some laws and taxes. Europe should not simply allow any company to come along and undermine everything. If Europe let's this happen, the consequence i…

It's probably worth noting that the EU has nothing to do with this. These are policies of individual countries, EU has very little if anything to do with taxes, pensions or health care.

It's true that the EU has no federal executive body, however, no country can simply go and set corporate taxes to 0 without an uproar. the cross border phone network is unified for example. The were Cyprus and Malta selling passports to the highest bidders without due diligence done,kickbacks and honey traps, you name it, it happened. https://euobserver.com/justice/149810

There is a limit on how much can and can't be done within the EU, it's not a gravy train buffet. There is peer pressure and potential, let's call it cascading effect. Some lawmaker will hear about this and try to get it passed in another country as well. I struggle to think of one state which would simply accept Uber as some great Enterprise idea, look at the history here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_ridesharing_comp... Most places banned and this bit. In December 2017, the European Court of Justice ruled that Uber is a transport company, subject to local transport regulation in European Union member states, rather than an information society service as Uber had argued.[99]

So at best, tolerated for the time being.

In Europe, working without full compensation is typically called illicit work(instead of side gig), not extremely frowned upon, but the main job has to have proper compensation. It very normal and expected to get 4 weeks paid holidays or more, sick days covered, insurance in most places, pension contributions etc. Uber tells you to get a car, petrol, pay insurance and take jobs when available, and get none of the above, who are they kidding.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#116

Rightly so. The 'gig economy' is abused by quite a few companies to create employment like situations without the required trappings (social security payments, employee protection, hourly minimums and so on). This was long overdue, let's hope it has precedent effect for other companies that abuse the ZZP construct.

But what if I legitimacy want to be a freelancer? Lifestyle reasons, freedom, whatever. I should have a choice.

You can be a freelancer just fine, nothing stops you from doing that. But not within the Uber framework because you aren' a freelancer within that framework. So this is pretty specific: the Uber framework does not check enough of the boxes that would allow their pseudo employees to claim they are freelancers, which effectively makes it just another tax dodge, which it always was.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#117
post #17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the company it costs more money, but for the employee, you are way better being employed than contractor. This is not a surprise, this extra money is effectively bringing the employee health insurance, pension, invalidity pension, unemployment benefit, maximum number of hours to work per week, paid vacations, etc. If you need to pay it out of your pocket, it turns out to be the same. In the "old" Europe, the net…

I can see the future: "New EU law: for every multipurpose robot in operation, the company must employ one human" :D

Well, maybe something more along the lines of a contribution towards UBI, or similar. This is a concept I first heard come out of the US, from Musk maybe?

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#118

I remember quite well some people here claiming that Uber was just about to replace all their drivers with autonomous cars. It was back in 2015... we're in 2021.

Autonomous cars are more expensive than drivers; the only reason they dislike having real drivers is that they have a voice.

Over the long run there is no way that autonomous cars are more expensive

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#119

I remember quite well some people here claiming that Uber was just about to replace all their drivers with autonomous cars. It was back in 2015... we're in 2021.

It’s happening in the year of Linux on the desktop.

We can invent something new : The year of the Linux driver

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#120
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a great youtube channel called "Not just bikes" which talks about urban planning in the netherlands and how it results in much more livable cities than the US.

This map of cyle paths in Europe tells you everything: https://imgur.com/Fkye6Nt

That's not really about cities, more about cycle paths between them. But there's a relation of course.
Post reply on HN