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Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

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Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#91
post #60

Soviet Union also successfully required that everyone will be officially employed.

What's that supposed to mean? Dutch people can still be self-employed - this ruling applies to one particular employer that has been pretending it's staff are self-employed.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#92
post #39
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Uber might be right here. EU labor laws protect a few but over a certain salary they are not very appealing. In Italy paying a net salary of 2,000 euros will cost the company 6000+. Things included like pension are not worth their cost, a private pension is better and cheaper, same for health services. It’s unfortunate but it’s true.

No way taxes are 66% of the gross salary.

That's not just taxes, he/she is including pension, healthcare etc. on top of not just employee but also employer taxes.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#93
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Must is just as wrong as won't . The ideal solution is, drivers being given the choice. Wanna earn more (but less predictable), pay less tax, have less social security, work whenever you want to? Or do you want to earn less (but completely predictable), pay more tax, have unemployment security, work fixed hours.

Not sure why this comment is down voted but it's spot on. Honestly, it's pretty annoying that some people decide what others can do or can't do with their free time and their car.

because it ignores the reality of european society: it's not a libertarian utopia, it's a society where the states do dictate things.

More specifically, it's blind to the fact that the parent comment is about existing regulation which is being abused.

It's like arguing with someone saying "you can't drive at 100 km/h in a residential area" with "well I am a CAN person myself, and I don' think we should say CAN'T".

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does there exist any company that allows their employees to work any number of hours they want, whenever they want?

What does that matter? Just because you can pick your own hours/work schedule, that doesn’t make you an independent contractor. At least it’s not determinative in the US under federal law nor any state that I am aware, but maybe that is the Dutch law and the court just got it wrong here

Here in the Netherlands, where the ruling was made, it's definitely the case that being able to determine your own hours is one of the requirements of being a freelancer.

When I was freelancing, clients could not tell me at what time I had to be in the office, when I could live, or on which days I had to go, to avoid me being considered an employee.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#95
post #39
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Uber might be right here. EU labor laws protect a few but over a certain salary they are not very appealing. In Italy paying a net salary of 2,000 euros will cost the company 6000+. Things included like pension are not worth their cost, a private pension is better and cheaper, same for health services. It’s unfortunate but it’s true.

No way taxes are 66% of the gross salary.

Social security fees are added on top of gross salary (and normally not visible on your payslip) so it's not a tax per se but still a cost for the company.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#96
post #60

Soviet Union also successfully required that everyone will be officially employed.

This isn't mandating that uber has to hire these people, or that these people have to have jobs, it's that if Uber wants them to work an amount of hours equivalant to a full time emlpoyee then they need to not pretend that they're not full time employees.

The amount of time worked has nothing to do with it - contractors in other industries typically work long hours. The reasoning is that contractors should retain some level of independence, like choosing their rides, and setting their own prices, for example. Uber is micromanaging all driver's daily activities, which is antithesis of being independent contractor.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#98
post #6

Bit out of context but I just came back from US (living in Netherlands). Holy flipping hell that place is full of cars. Literally everywhere. I mean I understand using a car upstate New York where things are further apart and everyone has a huge isolated villa. But do you really need 4 lane roads in freaking manhattan? Seems like regulating "car stuff" in general is always a good thing if you ask me.

I'm french, I really don't know how the US are going to get out of cars, it's going to be incredibly hard or impossible.

Mandatory ride sharing by taxing gas, or heavily subsidizing public transport?

Uber would have an unique opportunity to group rides for small busses.

Re: Uber must employ its drivers, Dutch court rules

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't understand who would want to drive in Manhattan. Like where are they coming from and where are they going? Where do they intend to park when they get there? It wouldn't occur to me in a million years to attempt to drive into a metropolis like that. I see normal private cars driving through New York and London and can't imagine who is in them and what they're attempting to do that means their best route is thr…

> I can't understand who would want to drive in Manhattan. I think the idea is that people will drive if their tolerance level for slowness is satisfied. So the amount of traffic will always be high enough to look acceptable for some people, unacceptable for others. As for parking, in London there are definitely parking lots scattered around the city - can't speak for New York though. > Like where are they coming fro…

> Probably going between their homes and family / friends / shops / entertainment venues / restaurants.

But in cities these places don't have parking outside. So where are they parking?

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