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Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

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Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#231

Post by slavapestov »

buzzert wrote: post #224
slavapestov wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work my job for the paycheck, which includes those RSUs of great value. It’s a fine job, but if I didn’t need the money, I would quit. What kind of commitments should I be making and why?

In this particular case, by commitments I mean fully commit to in-person collaboration. This doesn't mean sitting and working at your office desk instead of your home desk, it means actually making an effort to collaborate with other people. Sometimes in a spontaneous way, sometimes in a planned way. Collaboration is done better in person. I believe anyone who disagrees with that is actually only disagreeing for self…

I collaborate with people remotely. But even if we take it as a given that in-office is better for everyone, it comes with the tradeoff of having to live in the Bay.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#232

Post by astrange »

luffapi wrote: post #174
midev wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder how a VC would feel if a startup said “we have some ideas but our real innovation comes from people just randomly running into each other in the hallway. Will you invest?” I'm sure they would not invest in you because you didn't understand the arguments of office vs remote work. They'd probably think you were kinda dumb if your entire knowledge of human interaction was reduced down to "randomly running int…

“Hallway conversations” were literally the first point the GP made and the person you’re responding to correctly refuted that. They’re an anti-pattern, and if your company is benefiting from them, then they’ve failed in process, vision and culture. A successful company would not rely on such a thing.

Hallway conversations are also what Pixar was designed around, and everyone seems to like them.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#233

Post by jldugger »

seiferteric wrote: post #3

They just completed the spaceship a few years ago, can't just let it go sitting unoccupied now...

And up until April 2020, they were removing walls as fast as they could in that place to make room for more bodies. I don't think under utilization is a risk.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#234

Post by [deleted] »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #168
Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

I'd just like to add to that: 1. The daily routine and commute helps reset your brain and get you in/out of "work mode" 2. You don't have to cannibalize your home desk to make way for your work PC, or set up a second desk for work PC 3. No deciding what to get for lunch, it's whatever is closest or catered, no wanting a coffee and finding that you need to run to the store 4. If your team isn't meeting your sprint goa…

[deleted]

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#235

Post by vmception »

aikinai wrote: post #88
coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I save money by spending less on food, drinks, and electricity. Compared to commuting (car+gas) and time-to-commute opportunity costs (to use for personal house tasks, side projects, self health)? I seriously doubt it.

Why does everyone here just assume that everyone’s commute is as bad as theirs? There are many people in the current working generation that avoided the soul-sucking suburban commute from the start.

For about 3 months I had a soul sucking commute in the bay area, everyone's reaction:

"only 45 minutes each direction!? you're lucky!"

or

"that's a reverse commute! you're lucky!" spoiler alert, there is no reverse commute, everyone is driving every direction

Once I realized the collective delusion I quit

Most of my career has been 10 minute walking commutes at trendy companies in trendy neighborhoods in the middle of a city, max of 20.

Statistically this is not possible as others are priced out or the units to live in just don't exist.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#236

Post by vineyardmike »

slavapestov wrote: post #180
emc3 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect more of that competitive advantage, too! Most people don't want to give up Working from home[1] and/or are only interested in "working" to collect a paycheck[2]. If the future because of in-office work mostly consists of ambitious people like yourself, opposed to the latter, then I'm actually more interested in joining. Thanks for the perspective. [1] https://www.linkedin.com/posts/wfhjobs_wfh-workfrom…

What are you doing your job for if not to collect a paycheck?

Some people feel excitement from getting to work on their project, regardless of pay. Some people think they’re “changing the world”.

Some people feel a competitive nature and want to work and get ahead.

Some people work with friends and therefore enjoy being there and socializing.

People have varied motivations for things besides pay.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#237

Post by whateveracct »

Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

> I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage

Competitive advantage for whom? The company?

It's gonna be hard to overcome to employee advantage of having a potentially absurd effective-hourly-rate when you combine a high salary with extremely low actual hours that only remote work can provide.

You can go from 40-60 hours (factoring in overhead like commute) to 15-20 and 2-3x your hourly rate. That's a huge efficiency gain.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#238

Post by lozaning »

swiley wrote: post #138
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in EU too, but a lot of coders around here start at 10:00+.. especially in smaller companies.

I guess I wasn't clear, I work on the east coast of the US but having EU employees means people are used to some of their coworkers not being available all the time.

I worked on a project for a big Korean company that required me to work onsite with a team in Dusseldorf. I happened to be there over Easter weekend and the project was behind. I inquired as to when we would meet up to keep working, and they told me the office would be closed, so naturally I asked what coffee shop/cafe/space or whatever we'd work at instead.

The team there was shocked and maybe offended even, and I was informed it was verboten to work any of the next 3 days.

Differences in work cultures globally are staggering.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#239

Post by simfree »

luffapi wrote: post #221
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’re an outlier. I think online comment sections in general attract people whose preferred communication and socialization style is digital. That’s why at times HN comment sections feel like everyone unanimously agrees that in-person work universally bad. It’s great that we have more remote work opportunity post COVID, but it was never realistic to expect every company or even most company to abandon…

> Maintaining a remote team is significantly more management and communication overhead than simply having people in one place. I’ve managed both types of teams and haven’t found this to be the case at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Asynchronous communication as the norm is a lot less demanding on ICs and managers. In person meetings are rarely an effective use of time or energy.

In person meetings make some participants in said meeting feel good.

Besides this factor, in person meetings can often be less effective than email or a group chat.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#240

Post by rubicon33 »

Nbox9 wrote: post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

This is what most of the newcomers to WFH don't understand:

There is a big different between WFH for a few months where EVERYONE else is also WFH ... and WFH for YEARS where some, or most, of the others are in office.

The latter is years upon years of feeling disconnected, left out, and sidelined. The vast majority of companies even if they allow remote are not remote first. Remote first involves actual structural and procedural changes.

Lastly, WFH for years can result in a serious mental health decline. If you think you're doing fine after 1 year, come see me after 5. You'll realize by the end of it just how important water cooler conversation is for your BRAIN. You'll recognize just how bad it can be to see (as a function of your time alive) MOSTLY just your home. It does a number on you.

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