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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#231

Post by JoeAltmaier »

officemonkey wrote: post #104
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Through a world wars I and II, the various rebellions and coups, a civil war? No, very likely someone would have 'harvested' them to sell for food. Come on! The Nazis systematically plundered art treasures across Europe. After the war much of that was lost. There is not really much doubt on this.

Half of the marbles from the Parthenon survive in the Acropolis Museum. In other words, the Greeks know what they're doing. The Elgin Marbles were taken when the country was owned by the Ottoman Empire. I really wish you would do some research before spouting off with ill-informed opinions. The Nazis and Italians conquered Greece during WW2, they didn't take Acropolis marbles.

That's some sort of anomaly. They took everything else, and murdered half a million civilians. I guess the remaining marbles were in locations too difficult to easily loot? Or too weighty.

Anyway, Elgin 'rescued' the marbles after a period of particularly egregious destruction of Greek history. Much was lost, blown up or deliberately demolished. If the Greeks didn't give a damn, why should Elgin be blamed for caring?

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#232

Post by nyolfen »

sonofhans wrote: post #178
khawkins wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the region's susceptibility to Islamic State uprisings, I'm not convinced Iraq and Syria are going to be good stewards of antiquities in the long-run. [1][2] These areas haven't been stable for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_herita... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Mosul_Museum_ar...

Well, one of these artifacts looks to have been in that region of the world for over 5000 years. That's a pretty good track record. I'm sure the citizens of Philly wouldn't be susceptible to any arguments that Baghdad would be a better place to store the Liberty Bell.

it was sitting underground and unknown to men for almost all of time

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#234

Post by whywhywhywhy »

deathgrips wrote: post #33
legerdemain wrote: post #8

One of the outcomes of the US-Iraq war was Iraq's national heritage of antiquities getting plundered and sold illegally.[1] The burning of the Library of Alexandria is a potent symbol in Western culture, but the world has repeatedly suffered massive losses of cultural and historical artifacts in the last few decades. The public quickly develops historical amnesia for recent events. Compare, for example, the loss of B…

Another example is shutting down What.cd, which was a digital library that had an unbelievably large collection of music. Many titles couldn't be found anywhere except on What.cd.

License holders honestly can't be trusted with archiving or distributing their own works.

So much music and movies is available in inferior or compromised formats if you go through the versions available on the market today from the license owners.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#235

Post by coldpie »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #234
deathgrips wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example is shutting down What.cd, which was a digital library that had an unbelievably large collection of music. Many titles couldn't be found anywhere except on What.cd.

License holders honestly can't be trusted with archiving or distributing their own works. So much music and movies is available in inferior or compromised formats if you go through the versions available on the market today from the license owners.

The effectively-infinite copyright length that was introduced in the 1970s (yes, that recent!) definitely belongs in the same discussion as the burning of Alexandria. We haven't even begun to realize how much culture we've sacrificed at the foot of Disney and other copyright maximalists.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#236

Post by coldpie »

hinkley wrote: post #93
aeturnum wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many historical artifacts were obtained under conditions we would not repeat today. You could argue that almost all artifacts of other cultures in western museums are stolen, but not everyone goes that far. The British Museum is embroiled in many such controversies[1] and has put up statements around their Parthenon sculptures[2]. Large artifacts have been returned by nation states[3]. Generally, as I understand it,…

The British Museum was disappointing to me. I don't know what they're doing with the space, but if someone had told me that the British Museum was the same size as the Art Institute of Chicago it would have turned into an argument. Meanwhile the Louvre is so big (>2.5x the size) that you have to pace yourself. But that's not what was really disappointing. I had a vague comprehension that the British Museum contained…

> The British Museum was disappointing to me. I don't know what they're doing with the space, but if someone had told me that the British Museum was the same size as the Art Institute of Chicago it would have turned into an argument. Meanwhile the Louvre is so big (>2.5x the size) that you have to pace yourself.

Whaat! I visited the British museum for the first time a couple years ago. I spent two whole days there and still didn't see everything I wanted to!

> But that's not what was really disappointing. I had a vague comprehension that the British Museum contained artifacts that other countries wanted repatriated, and then I walked in and I knew. I knew exactly what they were talking about. It didn't feel like a museum. It felt like I had wandered into a pirates treasure cave.

However this, I get. I can definitely see that point of view dampening your experience.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#237

Post by eternalban »

deathgrips wrote: post #35
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The destruction of Baghdad itself, including the House of Wisdom (large library), by the Mongols in 1258 is probably a more apt comparison. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

What a tragedy. Most westerners don't realize that when Europeans were living in mud huts and emptying their chamber pots into the streets, the Muslim world had plumbing, water filtration, surgery, advanced mathematics, and many more amazing scientific advances which quickly spread throughout Muslim countries due to the cultural exchange at Mecca. I wonder what the world could have been like if the Mongols had never…

Not sure if Mongols are -entirely- responsible for the decline. We should also consider the shift of international trade from land to sea, and subsequent loss of contact with external world, as the possible culprit. (Consider the Ottomans, for example).

That said, here's a famous quote:

O would that my mother had never borne me, that I had died before and that I were forgotten [so] tremendous disaster such as had never happened before, and which struck all the world, though the Muslims above all . . . Dadjdjal [Muslim Anti-Christ] will at least spare those who adhere to him, and will only destroy his adversaries. These [Mongols], however, spared none. They killed women, men, children, ripped open the bodies of the pregnant and slaughtered the unborn. - Ibn al-Athir (1233–1160)

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#238

Post by pyronik19 »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #219
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, that's the PC line. Rational and reasonable. Sadly, likely to result in more lost antiquities. None of that argument actually addresses the safety of the artifacts, which is my single point I'm making here. Argue all we like about what 'should' be. The reality is, they were lost once and could be lost again. All in support of the 'native people', who in these cases would include hungry looters.

You cannot steal someone else's property even if you rightly believe that the owner wouldn't treat it very well. The same holds between civilized countries, of course. It is obvious that the people who think otherwise employ double moral standards and would never agree to the theft of their country's cultural heritage under similar conditions.

We take peoples kids when they wouldn't be treated well.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#239

Post by [deleted] »

enitihas wrote: post #51
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh is Iraq's government stable again? Are the people not at risk of hunger? Will the sanctity of museums be observed now and in the future, uninterrupted? The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? Being PC about antiquities is intellectually interesting. But practically, it means many antiquities will be broken up, lost or hidden.

The Government was stable, until the US of A decided to bless them with freedom and democracy. Your logic is absurd. Should a rich and stable nation steal all things of historical value from a poorer nation, in the name of history preservation? > The Elgin marbles are safe in the British Museum. Would they have been safe, left where they were found, for 100 years? It frankly doesn't matter. It was the right of the na…

[deleted]

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#240

Post by _jal »

oh_sigh wrote: post #172
_jal wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may have a moral code, but it is the sort of code that is OK with illegally smuggling artifacts that their own hired experts and lawyers were concerned were looted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal I'd suggest being open about forgery shows they're interested in getting their money's worth from their feeders.

So they share the moral code of as the great state-run museums of England, France, Italy, and Spain? That's good to know actually.

Yeah, cowardly thieves are as common as rats.
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